How Do You Know Its Decentralised?

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(Edited)

It's a word that gets thrown around an awful lot and no one really knows what it means, I feel like it's been bastardized and generalized to mean essentially nothing. The term decentralization is nothing more than a marketing term to gain attention like blockchain.

You could have a bar and call it the long island blockchain company and that you sell decentralized beverages and it would mean as much to your product as it would many of these so-called chain projects and tokens.

Decentralisation is NOT priced into these various protocols because they've never needed to prove it, nor has it been tested. The entire point of decentralisation was to trust no one and verify things yourself yet how many people are actually doing that?

If you're not running a node, you know nothing

I run a bitcoin node, connect my wallet to it and use my node to verify the rules of the chain and my transactions. I use my node to establish my own lightning channels and I keep it up to date. I do run Bitcoin core so I am trusting their software, but I don't need to run Bitcoin core and I can run any other compatible instance.

Setting up a node was fairly easy and today you can even buy a ready-made node, so what is your excuse not to use one? If you're holding more than $1000 of bitcoin why wouldn't you have a node and a hardware wallet?

I know what's going on with the chain I choose to use, I verify my transactions myself and have a full view of everything happening on-chain both past and present.

I don't have to be rich or be connected to run a node, all I need is an internet connection, so anyone can run a node.

Is there ANY chain that can make this claim? Not really and the ones that can run on retail devices are getting bigger and more bloated to a point where a basic laptop cannot be a node.

Once this happens you transition to server farms and cloud providers and you essentially centralise the protocol. A government or rival chain could force that company to shut down support for that chain.

Yes this is theory but the attack vector is there and no one seems to be bothered since they're too busy LARPing about how decentralised their shitcoin is and why it's so special.

How do you know it's decentralised if you don't run a node? Where are you getting this information from? If you're not running a node does your opinion matter?

I would claim to say no, you're talking out of your arse.

know-decentralisation.png

But decentralisation is a spectrum

Some things are more decentralised than others, sounds like a plausible thing to say but I would have to disagree with those who think so, I think there is a meaningful cut-off for decentralisation. That meaningful cut-off is the influence both internal parties and external parties have over the system.

If governments only need to pressure a few companies or threaten a few individuals with jail time to shut down your chain, guess what? You're not decentralised.

If a select few can make consensus changes without those disagreeing with it remaining compatible, then you're not decentralised.

Distributed and insignificant

You can bullshit all you want but you cannot escape the reality of certain physical constraints. If the requirements of your chain outpaces the average joe's access to hardware, then your service is not decentralised.

If the average joe doesn't care to participate in your network to support decentralisation, then it's not decentralised.

Sure it's distributed among a set of insiders or you're paying several service providers to host it in different places but that doesn't make it incorruptible, this is merely technology kabuki theatre.

There is nothing wrong with not being decentralised, plenty of things work better centralised, which is why I don't understand why people and projects have such a hard-on for a label that isn't helpful and that they didn't earn in any meaningful day.

If your project or chain is insignificant congratulations, no one cares enough to attack it, that doesn't make it decentralised or resistant to anything. It just makes the project unattractive to attack because the return is a waste of time.

The amount of arrogance I see in people who will lap up any narrative for a few tokens or own a few tokens and are willing to lie about the efficacy of their investment is deplorable. It's total fiat thinking with a new name, all you want is for the fiat system to continue but with a different name and where you're on top.

It reminds me a lot of that scene in the matrix where Cypher says I know this steak isn't real, but man ignorance is bliss.

That's what you're doing when you're shilling your unregistered SPACs that are actually securities.

Don't say I didn't try to warn you.

Have your say

What do you good people of HIVE think?

So have at it my Jessies! If you don't have something to comment, "I am a Jessie."

Let's connect

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32 comments
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There's a balance. I'm happy that Hive is decentralised and diverse enough and we have enough of a range of block producers. But if course, I also run my own bitcoin and Lightning node.

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To me I still see that as distributed rather than Decentralized I mean running a bitcoin cash node or ETH light client seems far easier in terms of barrier to entry and how many people are actively campaigning for more nodes on even those networks? Doesn’t seem like there’s much of a culture to support growing the robust nature of these networks

I'm not picking on one I just don't see many people motivated to contribute to the decentralising and happy to trust a new set of gate keepers which isn't exactly a problem like I said nothing wrong with being distributed

but I take issue with people who constantly shill this or that Decentralized or distributed without doing the work themselves and just repeating talking points from their white paper

I would even have the same opinion on bitcoin if I saw the amount of active nodes substaintially dropping but it’s not even those adding LN support is increasing and I’m happy about that

I’m not saying everyone should run a node but how about community nodes, where I know the dude whose node I use, the uncle Jim model as matt Odell likes to call it

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BTW have you tried out my Hive to Lightning gateway? https://lnd.v4v.app would be happy if you test it out swapping an HBD or two to Sats.

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Thanks for the recommendation, I will give it a whirl

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Very cool man, works great, paid a LN invoice now to - https://lightningnetworkstores.com/faucet to fund their faucet :)

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Fantastic! I just saw that go through on the back end. It's blazingly fast isn't it :-)

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Epic, by the time I switched tabs it was too late lol it was already paid and the refund done, now this is an experience I can get used to using. Plugging into LN is a great move as its starting to gain traction with zebedee games, LN markets for trading like a degen, Podcasting.

Looking forward to seeing how you integrate this into all sorts of projects

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Looking in the logs...

All in all it takes me 6 seconds to pay and probably 2 to 4s to get the message via Hive. The actual Lightning network payment is almost 4s of that so on a par with Hive's 3s block times. But I have seen successful Lightning payments take as long as 60s!

2021-12-22T16:17:04+0000 INFO root MainThread : ----------------------->  Server Memo found lnbc100u1psuxn6gpp5elfvztf
2021-12-22T16:17:06+0000 INFO root MainThread : Value Recived: 11,472 - Requested: 10,000 - After fee: 10,100
2021-12-22T16:17:06+0000 INFO root MainThread : Max Fee msats: 500000
2021-12-22T16:17:06+0000 INFO root MainThread : Starting to pay invoice lnbc100u1psu | Timeout set: 120
2021-12-22T16:17:10+0000 INFO root MainThread : Status: 200 after time: 3.8960568040020007
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What is the time delay for? is it due to routing issues or lack of liquidity in the channels you've established? I've only started messing with LN and it seems like theres loads to learn so always keen to get feedback on it

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This will amaze you: when my node is told to pay a lightning invoice this is the process:

  1. Figure out the final destination's address. This can be a bit complex because some addresses are private but include "routing hints" on how to get to a node that isn't private which has a private connection to the destination. Muun wallets are like this and that caused chaos.

  2. Ask each channel my node has whether it has enough liquidity to make the payment.

  3. Send requests down each of those channels to try to find a path to the destination and check for liquidity.

  4. The cascade or requests through the network eventually, hopefully, finds a path with liquidity or even multiple paths.

  5. The cheapest path is picked (or multiple paths now I think) if the payment is too large for any one path.

  6. The transaction is agreed to and all the nodes along the way told to make the payments necessary.

  7. Pour yourself a stiff drink.

Heath Robinson would be impressed that this ever works. The question you should be asking is not why does it take 4s but how on earth does all of that ever happen in only 4 seconds!

I'd be happy to be challenged on any of that by a real expert, I've only come to understand this by hammering on it day after day for @v4vapp .

I have a solid quote for a system and website to go Lighting -> Hive which hopefully I'll pay for and have built in January. I decided it is beyond me at this point.

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Here's the full diagnostic on the last invoice you paid. You can see all the hops it took to get that to work. The fees are usually in msats 1/1000's of a full sat.

2021-12-22T16:40:06+0000 INFO root MainThread : Value Recived: 16,252 - Requested: 14,031 - After fee: 14,151
2021-12-22T16:40:06+0000 INFO root MainThread : Max Fee msats: 500000
2021-12-22T16:40:06+0000 INFO root MainThread : Starting to pay invoice lnbc140310n1psux4xrpp5a4k28aa0elx3ma46r32cwvkj239ty3rct3vvc6j0r0w6ksc2tn7qdqcg3hkuct5d9hkugr5dus9gsjdcqzpgxqzjcsp5p9gyegs7tdamm262sxd5et22k9gz5yn4l2rxut6wjxv3hhgs638q9qyyssqy6fe6xtej9wx0pudksd9c3qgdterqaqult4cmwvl4ywex8umhgrraw7xwgux2cmusl0dmqa569c4ktxcvez36w8s6zr6ynftpy0lz0gqws5yxt | Timeout set: 120
2021-12-22T16:40:09+0000 INFO root MainThread : Status: 200 after time: 2.0233294569989084
2021-12-22T16:40:09+0000 INFO root MainThread : LND result: {
  "payment_error": "",
  "payment_preimage": "7cPCqlQueqEoHD25FFrC58RfdNeecO2uI/pBKGxjOcs=",
  "payment_route": {
    "total_time_lock": 715539,
    "total_fees": "14",
    "total_amt": "14045",
    "hops": [
      {
        "chan_id": "759896675261087745",
        "chan_capacity": "1000000",
        "amt_to_forward": "14045",
        "fee": "0",
        "expiry": 715499,
        "amt_to_forward_msat": "14045318",
        "fee_msat": "14",
        "pub_key": "03ae9f91a0cb8ff43840e3c322c4c61f019d8c1c3cea15a25cfc425ac605e61a4a",
        "tlv_payload": true,
        "mpp_record": null,
        "amp_record": null,
        "custom_records": {}
      },
      {
        "chan_id": "734312139299618817",
        "chan_capacity": "100000",
        "amt_to_forward": "14039",
        "fee": "6",
        "expiry": 715459,
        "amt_to_forward_msat": "14039001",
        "fee_msat": "6317",
        "pub_key": "033868c219bdb51a33560d854d500fe7d3898a1ad9e05dd89d0007e11313588500",
        "tlv_payload": true,
        "mpp_record": null,
        "amp_record": null,
        "custom_records": {}
      },
      {
        "chan_id": "763428306590629888",
        "chan_capacity": "10000000",
        "amt_to_forward": "14031",
        "fee": "8",
        "expiry": 715315,
        "amt_to_forward_msat": "14031000",
        "fee_msat": "8001",
        "pub_key": "03864ef025fde8fb587d989186ce6a4a186895ee44a926bfc370e2c366597a3f8f",
        "tlv_payload": true,
        "mpp_record": null,
        "amp_record": null,
        "custom_records": {}
      },
      {
        "chan_id": "680588901539250176",
        "chan_capacity": "1500000",
        "amt_to_forward": "14031",
        "fee": "0",
        "expiry": 715315,
        "amt_to_forward_msat": "14031000",
        "fee_msat": "0",
        "pub_key": "03a0ec9f2148b8bf5386df07418259b260695307ffc319c1300bb12ad35308636e",
        "tlv_payload": true,
        "mpp_record": {
          "payment_addr": "CVBMoh5be72rSoGbTK1KsVAqEnX6hm4vTpGZG90Q1E4=",
          "total_amt_msat": "14031000"
        },
        "amp_record": null,
        "custom_records": {}
      }
    ],
    "total_fees_msat": "14332",
    "total_amt_msat": "14045332"
  },
  "payment_hash": "7Wyj96/PzR32uhxVhzLSVEqyRHhcWMxqTxvdq0MKXPw="
}
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I took it for a test drive with coincorner checkout too, so you can basically jump on all the merchants accepting LN on their platform, :) UK peeps are going to have it good.

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Dude, this is top work, thanks for doing it, works a treat. Did a lightning invoice earlier with some HBD 👌

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Yeah, the term "decentralized" is one of the hot button terms of late. I find it kind of funny when I see it, but don't have enough time to see how truly decentralized they are.

My biggest concern in the future is absolutely going to be the cloud companies and internet companies who are all entirely centralized. Big ol' GUVMENT comes in and says "shut down this network or we fine you" and boom, things disappear. That's where I think the biggest fight for freedom will happen as far as the internet comes along.

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You don’t need to check all you do is see what their node requirements are and if it’s out of a average guys price range it won’t be Decentralized lol

You’re not wrong to have those concerns AWS Google Microsoft and IBM basically hold most of our data and that’s not going to change anytime soon!

I want to see more off grid options like the guys at start 9 labs are doing to allow you to break out of these monopolies

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HIVE is decentralized to an extent but I still think they have some issues to be considered fully decentralized. For example, I know there are a lot of people who use a few different service providers and if they suddenly stopped, we would probably have some major issues. It reminds me of when there were some fires in Europe and we had node problems because half of them went offline or something like that.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

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If we had to review the threats,

  • some of the node runners are publically dox'd so they could easily be coerced into shutting down support.
  • As you mentioned some are running on 3rd party servers, and we all know companies aren't the most robust
  • As the chain gets bigger and requires more storage it limits the chances of running independent operations to run a full archive
  • Hard forks are frequent and can easily push nodes out of consensus
  • Cost of running a node continues to increase and so too the barrier for competing nodes
  • Nodes aren't really geographically decentralised mostly from US and Europe very few from other parts of the world so like you say certain countries can affect the chain
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We won't know how secure many of these "decentralized" networks are until hackers or governments actually try to attack them. Considering that possibility, it's a good idea to maintain a diversified portfolio.

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ExAclty so do you really want to wait and find out or do you want to actively campaign to keep expanding its robust nature as bitcoiners do by encouraging more people to run nodes

For me I am concerned of the risk and won’t keep a meaningful amount in anything other than bitcoin

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I think the risk/reward ratio is better keeping a diversified portfolio, rather than having the majority in Bitcoin. The likelihood of all these dozens of other blockchains being attacked and shutdown simultaneously is quite low in my opinion.

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I would disagree there, you're applying the idea of diversifying into one asset class, diversifying is mean't to go across asset classes to you can capture non-correlated growth. all crypto is tied to bitcoin, sure you can get some capital flows here and there but in the end its pretty insignificant

If we look at all cryptos they are going straight down in bitcoin terms over time, so your purchase in satoshis is way outperforming anything else.

Even in the case where capital flow into a coin may temporarily outperform bitcoin you still need to be able to time that top/overvaluation period and then secure your gains either in bitcoin or a stable coin and hope your taking of profits minus the tax burden you incur would outperform holding bitcoin.

99% of people won't get this right, crypto is a VC and hedgefund game and most retail will lose, they will think they win because they might have more fiat but in actual fact they lost when compared to simply holding bitcoin

Then we still need to factor in the opportunity cost of wasting time following coins, which you could use for more constructive means

but to each their own, lessons will be learned

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This was very educational. I realized how much I don't know about what decentralization means. I am really a newbie in crypto but I am looking to the future to get myself a hardware wallet at least in the near future. Thank you for this article.

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Thanks Lisa it’s a pleasure and always happy to help and answer any questions you may have! If you want to learn some of the basics I would suggest checking out my blog here

Here I try to remove the noise and push out simple to understand posts about bitcoin and how to navigate this new world we live in

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You're welcome, @chekohler. I bookmarked your blog link. Thanks for sharing it! Have a wonderful week and a Happy and Prosperous New Year!🍾
!ALIVE

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I hear you completely the whole point is for us to be able to do our own research and be able to verify the facts.
Personally, I do not own any Bitcoin, I know that is sacrilege.
Instead, I learned about De-Fi on Hive-Engine, and yes I run a Hive-Engine node the only 1 in Asia. I know that is hard to believe but it is true.

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Indeed, the more you research the better you become at it, running a node is great news, maybe one day you'll run a bitcoin or lightning node too :). As long as you're learning and open to learning I think you'll get to bitcoin eventually

These are all temporary test nets in my opinion

https://twitter.com/Dave_FX_hunter/status/1475182244188893198

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That is an interesting concept, and have not thought of it. Thank you for the idea 😀

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It’s a pleasure always question everything and try to verify as much as you can

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I will take that advice!! 👍

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