RE: Hive Middle Class Developing
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And you are representative of the average potential user? Not likely, you need to look way outside of yourself for this one...
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You are viewing a single comment's thread:
And you are representative of the average potential user? Not likely, you need to look way outside of yourself for this one...
Yeah I get that too, but reality is this is available to everyone who puts effort in for a long period of time.
Just curious, how many hours a week do you average on Hive and how many hours for the week you've earned the most? I'm not looking for exact numbers, just the best guess.
Never really checked but would guess 50 hours per week and somewhere around 600 hive being the best week. I used to spend more time, but have cut back. I believe you need time being active to get established.
Right, so more hours than an average full time job for about the earnings of a poor person for just one year, but it took you six. Most won't find Hive worth the effort and is why it has stagnated.
Yes that is one way of looking at it. The other way is you have grown a base that you can then put less time in and it will generate far more in the future. Time is needed in the beginning.
This view always bothered me and is the most common reason people don't stay. The write a blog and even if it gets $40, they go 'that's not even equal to 1-hour salary at work! and it took 2 hours to write, fuck this'.
Nobody understands how value here works. Like I've just watched my account casually go from $9,000 to $12,000 as the markets creep up in value. It's hardly impossible that goes to $25-$30,000.
At the end of the day, it's simply because people don't enjoy blogging, inherently. It's just not fun or interesting. I happen to like it though, so I stick around, and now people are jealous that I have $25,000+ in various places of crypto I earned 100% by writing words on a computer once in a while.
I might have instead watched a TV show every time, or gone fishing, and earned $0 in the same period. If you enjoy it, doesn't matter.
Ah, but people obviously do like sharing on social media or the big web2 apps wouldn't be so popular. So the problem is the framework and unspoken rules here that holds it back. That only happens because of the weird economics that increases ones power exponentially as they stake more an more. The longer a few grow so large that they cannot be touched before the masses come to even it out, the less likely the masses will come. A cycle that kills growth.
On top of that, crypto is just seen as a grocery store rewards point kills its appeal. After jumping through all the hoops and paying all the fees to withdraw you no longer have $25k and then there are taxes. So, even putting in 50 hrs a week that doesn't take you beyond poverty level earns even less. So, the shown value is just an illusion.
Look at InLeo Evergreen rewards. It's touted as a way to earn forever, but if you power down you can't earn them. So, ever benefit Hive touts are all negated in some way in the name of fighting abuse. Because of this Hive's big day will never come.
My original comment was to bring forth the fact that over 50% of that middle class HP is left by those who have left Hive, because they don't care about the worthless credit earned that's only worth the cost of earning if you live in a poverty stricken 3rd world country. So, guess what the platform's becoming? A 3rd world platform, further taking away it's appeal.
The governance is part of what keeps us from growth and drives people away, because it isn't revolutionary. It's just a worst version of the failed representative real world governments that more and more are coming to hate. Hive is essentially a failed experiment. Either it changes or someone else will build a fixed version and will become dust.
I mean I agree with several points, but 'Either it changes' ultimatum is a bit dramatic. As far as I can see, it's already in a position where people can utilize the platform to create great things. There's just nobody doing it, and I don't know how one would make that change when there's no CEO or any real risk.
Nobody is incentivised to hire a full time staff to expand, nor get any outside investors involved - there's nothing to invest in.
But yeah you can't really blame the back-end that is Hive, so much as the very concept itself: Crypto, Tokens, Blockchain...
So you either accept its just something most people aren't going to be interested in the second they hear any of those red flag keywords (blockchain etc) and make with it what you will... or, you move to the standard web2 and start a fight about abortion on X until you become viral enough to start peddling a book about becoming a millionaire overnight in 8 easy steps.
Or I suppose third option is you create a Hive-backed platform where Hive itself is so well-hidden that the red flags all get concealed and the tokens get auto-exchanged into USD or something.
existing on a blockchain is like living in a neighbourhood with a registered sex offender. They could be absolutely, 100%, honest to the highest powers reformed, Godly and castrated. Maybe even completley innocent to begin with.
The value of housing is still gonna plummet lol. There's just no easy way around that fact.
Well, the real question is why hasn't Hive the tech already caught the attention of teams of devs? Plenty have seen it, but it's obviously missing something because they strolled right on by. I'll be dramatic once again; if it doesn't find the missing pieces then Hive will only be a potential never realized. I believe that to already be the case. Instead, a new idea will blast by leaving Hive in the rear mirror still trying to realize that potential. Hence why I'm not investing in it... I'll go out on a limb say that the governance structure is a huge hindrance. The worst version of a democracy ever instituted.
Over the years, I've seen a LOT of glistening, shiny replicas of Hive come and go. They had a lot more financial support and backing, a more centralised leadership and more ambitious teams.
And yet, they no longer exist. In the real world, the vast majority of business ventures fail, the majority of those failing in 5 years or less. It's a survivorship bias to simply say, buck your ideas up and you'll succeed. That just isn't true.
Again, Hive isn't meant to be some business venture where investors come and expect a product they can peddle. It's meant to be a background function that people use. The one thing that Hive as a society has failed to do, is find the right people to do that.
The goal, I believe, is not to suddenly boom into existence, hit headlines, and have a bunch of silicon valley entrepreneurs pour billions into it. That's a whole other world. The goal here is to create a powerful, functional tool. It just happens to work as a blog cuz thats how it started out.
The more people who make games like Holozing and Splinterlands, website builders, or news platforms, or payment tools, or educational tools, etc, the more accessible and successful the hive back end will become. But even then, Hive should be at most a vague shadow beaneath those projects, like a programming language or something.
It's very possible it will never happen, as you suspect, but I'd rather stick around and find out, while in the meantime benefitting from a quaint little community which has allowed me to take a year off work with my earnings and buy a nice expensive laptop ^__^
Fair enough
As an aside, you've been whining on this platform for literally months... why are you even here lol, come on. Just go back to X or whatever and have a good time re-tweeting memes
I have my reasons and that's allw hich matters. It's been much longer than months
You're doing it wrong.
https://www.leofinance.io/threads/view/nonameslefttouse/re-leothreads-u8daesv8
That link leads to a multi-billion dollar industry described in two short comments. That's what we're all sitting on.
Sure but I was talking in a traditional sense. your comments are hypotheticals. Hypothetically, this place could be huge and dominate the new world, but it doesn't, and won't. Which isn't even a bad thing imo.
It just doesn't work in the way normy people understand the economic way of the world, and perhaps I'm naive but history shows that just generating endless content isn't some foolproof path to success. Quite the contrary, the more hours put into it, the less per-hour income shared out decreases on average, since the averate content creator here earns about 0.3 cents per post
Something does need to happen far beyond what's currently being done to trigger any significant growth (if that's even desirable - not for me)
Would be difficult to take the traditional approach while blazing new trails. And of course generating an endless pile of content leads nowhere. And yes the content creators don't earn much. Like I said. Doing it wrong.
Yes, a normal person wouldn't understand how they're able to support their interests at no cost rather than throwing their money away, all while watching their support level grow over time. Consumers aren't accustomed to getting an actual deal.
They can learn.
Content creators here don't even realize the world and money outside exists. That's why they earn so little and then think the platform is broken, but they could learn, too.
Will anyone learn? I doubt it.
Here's what everyone's missing, and I'll use streamers as an example.
If a streamer doesn't receive any form of tip throughout their stream, they wouldn't conclude the platform is broken, and they wouldn't stop creating content. They would continue, streaming daily.
Eventually those tips start pouring in. Now they have a supportive following/return customers. All that work with low pay was worth it.
Now, if you add in our model here. Staking tokens and voting is the same as the tips they've grown accustomed to earning. However, those tips are sporadic and the revenue stream is all over the place. Up and down.
That consumer can stake tokens and vote. Now the streamers support is spread out and consistent, daily. Plus that consumer isn't actually spending money. All they've done is shifted money over from their bank account to their Hive wallet. They're no longer spending money to support a content creator but instead earning money to support a content creator.
Due to the fact this is a phenomenal deal, more people are encouraged to provide support naturally. Now the streamer has a following consisting of far more regular paying supporters. And if one decides they've had enough, they can leave, have their money back or go support someone else; streamer continues and hardly notices they're gone because five more showed up.
Traditionally, nobody can afford to support a content creator with cash tips, daily. Since content creators work daily, this method is far more future friendly.
Now, when you have thousands of creators attracting millions of supporters, you're going to have a really hard time keeping that token value at 40 cents. Demand causes consistent rise in value because all consumer money is locked into this ecosystem rather than coming in as cash tips then leaving as cash tips. Now the streamer is making even more money and they can actually cash out instead of being told to go around and leave comments under posts and engage with others to gain support, only to be viewed as a traitor if they actually cash out and pay themselves.
That's what everyone is missing out on by sticking to the way things are. And you don't need a boss to get that ball rolling. Just need a few people to be able to understand what I'm saying and doing it for themselves.
Consumers double as investors while actual investors see a business model worth investing in. All this is just sitting on the table and could start happening today if people wanted.
By keeping things the way they are and have been for a number of years, yeah, you're right, there's nothing to invest in. And oddly enough, everything I just brought up is only one small part of what Hive actually is. Get those consumers here and even those games see a boom. Interest spills over onto everything else. All this place needs to do is open the blinds and look outside.
Survivorship bias - There are people with youtube channels of exceptionally composed and produced content, animated, scripted, algorithmically catered to perfection, and they get 300 views tops, half of them probably themselves checking why no views.
We never hear about the failures, only the successes.
You can't guarantee to people to just keep chugging along. Something has to change and adapt to the environment - they have to do something else with substantial business acumen to get it off the ground, rather than just hope for enough luck to go viral.
Even if Hive did go viral somehow and get a sudden influx of a million users, they'd ride the market wave and dump asap, with a user retention rate here of about 1%, I don't see why it would change just cuz more people join. They'll be gone inside of a week with a nice chunk of change for some AI generated contenet that took 30 seconds.
This is a leap of faith based on long term gains 99.9999% + of people will never do, unfortunately.
The opposite is true, people are encouraged to provide support artificially, which is how you get all this culture of circle jerking, auto-voting and other forms of abuse. This isn't unique to here, by any means.
On the contrary, it's natural support when people actively spend their money to support the content they like, such as via patreon or allowing ads.
But more to the point, you've made some leaps back into a totally hypothetical situation with no real practical path to get to that result, short of simply 'Just need a few people to be able to understand what I'm saying and doing it for themselves.' - well, what people? How? Who is going to tell them? How do we know they will stay, or invest? How can we make them? What is so appealing about an insignificant front end that doesn't even make it in the top 50,000 websites in terms of traffic, and is less valuable and popular than the majority of scammy shitcoins?
None of what you've said has happened yet, and there's no reason to think it will.
The missing piece here is the initial investor, the big, wealthy stakeholders that invest specifically so they can have a stake in how things succeed, with the specific goal of growing their own passive wealth. It's this that drives most companies to greater heights in the real world. Your idea might be future friendly, but we're in the present, and future friendly isn't interesting to people living in the present.
There is a barrier, a Great Filter, preventing your ambitious views from happening that you haven't managed to address (and neither has anyone so far in the last 8+ years).
I don't wanna be too doomy. I am still here and I still have faith in this project, and I want to figure a way to make my totally awesome concept come to life here. I just think it's a much steeper uphill battle than you suggest, and I don't think anyone should expect a sudden boom of recognition after a hardfork or something. It's gonna crawl at a linear rate for a long, long time, if not forever - and if there is a way out of that, I haven't seen it - yet!
I didn't say everyone earns. I didn't say everyone succeeds. That was left out because it's commonsense. The eventual tips pouring in can be observed on other platforms. It happens, often. Streamer example, it's hard to find one where someone isn't being thanked for the tip.
What I'm attempting to point out and often fail is how the support system is the only thing that makes this platform different. It's not used effectively though or even marketed.
Pointing out how it can be used to gather authentic organic support. You're seeing how it's being used now to recycle existing money and the rest of this disaster.
A content creator here could easily use patreon. The supporters then lose out on the benefits of staking and voting. That's the difference. Same action. Better deal for the consumer. And in eight years nobody has tried to get outside support by offering those perks. I'm talking about "natural support" as you put it. And there are plenty of studies pointing to the fact consumers spend more when perks are involved, but that's not the point.
When I explain it, most can't see how consumers/supporters and investors have different mindsets. It often turns into this whole story about how they'd dump for profit. Their goal is to support content, much like they would using patreon or tipping a streamer or youtuber or anything. They're coming for content, not crypto.
This model that already exists without changing anything here can compete with patreon, and win.
I said I just need a few people to understand what I'm talking about. You're not one and explaining this any other way still won't make sense to you. That won't stop me from continuing on trying to find those people that get it. Some do. Most don't. Most are stuck in their comfort zones here or convinced everything is broken and it's a lost cause.
Without outside money coming in to make up for the cost of the content here, all this content amounts to a net loss. That's not attractive to any big miracle investor, unless they came along to build something combined with the same plans I'm trying to highlight here. They'd want to make money.
Our Hive Engine tokenized communities with several contributors and a weekly payout is akin to a weekly issued magazine. In order for someone to purchase that magazine, they stake tokens and vote for articles. The reason all those tokens struggle is because they didn't sell their "magazine" to readers.
Creating a product for consumers, ignoring consumers, and hoping for a big investor to show up is ridiculous. There's a scaled down example of how seeking outside money, embracing supporters and offering those perks that come standard would rejuvenate the entire project. It's very basic business principles I'm pointing out here. Nothing more.
(sorry for late reply - time zones)
Agree! I think this highlights that we're actually both in agreement. I even said in my original response this very statement. Hive itself is ready to go, the issue is not its function, but its appeal (none).
It's not that I, or others are too low IQ to understand these basic principles of how things should, could and would work. It's just demonstrably, they aren't, don't, and won't.
I've literally been here for as long as you, pretty consistently the entire time, I've been involved in projects for years and I have plans for a new one. So I personally believe in the system and obviously see its potential and the various ways it can be utilized effectively. If not, I would have quit long ago.
However, it's just not an ecosystem conducive to 99.99999%+ of people as consumers/supporters, let alone a hawkish investment-minded elite who could get the place kickstarted. I get that there's an entirely new way of thinking about things regarding stakes and encouraging engagement for rewards. But that clearly, demonstrably isn't nearly enough.
Hell, this place could have the greatest possible online ecosystem ever to be constructed that could single-handedly transform the planet into a utopia. It still won't get off the ground on merit alone.
Generally, it's the support a project gets from big investors that gives users the confidence of legitimacy and up-and-coming vibes. Even that doesn't guarantee things - just look at all the failed Google projects out there with all the financial backing in the world - but it absolutely raises the chances far more than simply depending on users being slowly drawn in like a donkey drawn to a carrot on a stick.
Most people from outside coming in think about it as such: A dodgy place where you turn money into fake money in order to generate more fake money which you can't actually do anything with, and you have to suffer through reading boring content and writing even more boring content in order to acquire said fake money.
That ball and chain has never been able to be shaken off. Marketing to consumers alone isn't gonna be enough. If Bill Gates came along and studied it and poured a ton of his money into it, then everyone will be like 'well hang on a minute, legit, uncensored blockchain social media? I'm in!'
Alternatively, front ends are perhaps wiser to conceal or minimize the very fact that blockchain and hive is even involved in whatever project they create, and make those independent projects successful in and of themselves in the traditional sense of start-ups
I wasn't suggesting people aren't smart enough to see the difference. It's just years of programming and always doing things the same way. Crypto is synonymous with investors. Consumers in crypto hardly exists; rare and does not compute. Once those elements become more part of the background, crypto is just money.
I know crypto has a bad name. General public thinks it's trash or thinks they'll be ripped off. Demonstrating how this platform has a solid foundation with evidence won't help either because they won't understand the demonstration.
People do understand "see video, like video, comment."
Also, and I'm not trying to be confrontational and offering counter points just for the sake of argument.
There are big investors here.
You're looking at the current form of the content, thinking people wouldn't be interested. And I can agree, a lot of it's boring and wouldn't attract outside support. When I'm talking about this, I'm not trying to sell this content.
So what's more likely to bring more people? And influencer smiles and says Hive. Or a content creator with their own community offering this support system to their followers.
First one has happened several times and doesn't amount to a damn thing. Second one hasn't happened yet is far more appealing since the only way to move that crowd would be to offer them a better deal. Now you're "marketing" to both content creators and consumers. The people who have large followings on the outside never once brought paying supporters with them. It has always been a missed opportunity. Those supporters trust the personalities they follow. Unfortunately that has led to ripoffs as well. Crypto Zoo for example.
Luckily this platform is decentralized and this approach couldn't turn into a rip off like that. Still, again, those people on the outside wouldn't understand that. I get all this.
Eight years though. No progress in that department. Always the same excuses. Gets old.
People are free to continue creating products for consumers and ignoring the consumers. Can go on for another eight years. Perhaps by then they'll catch on. Magically.
Maybe it's worth mentioning a current case study. Vibes. Look how fast it's growing. The existing support must be shared with each new content creator showing up. Without any added support, the more popular it becomes, the faster it stagnates. The solution is to bring in outside support. People spend billions on music each year. That's a decent pile of money to tap into and this is the first time people that enjoy music can earn to support it rather than throwing those billions away. So there's two choices. Ignore the consumers and allow it to stagnate. Or attract the consumers and allow it to prosper. Boils down to a simple choice.
Watch.
Yep, agree here too.
My idea to get around this blockage is, in my humble opinion, genius on many levels but A) I'm too worried about sharing it and the idea getting stolen B) I don't have the business savvy to get it started C) I don't wanna spend my money knowing the low, low success rate of otherwise great projects here in the past.
Basically a lack of confidence from me - I'd trust you enough if you're mildly curious to hear about it in DMs or something - but point being, that's someone of 7 or 8 years on here lacking confidence that it'll work out. It's much harder to imagine people from a totally outside world coming in with this entirely different and complicated ecosystem, even if you have a large community of loyal followers. I think there's a line in the sand some people just won't cross.
Shifting that line in the sand in our favour is, apparently, extraordinarily difficult to do, but we certainly agree it's not impossible. Just missed opportunity after missed opportunity - including, guilty as charged, my own.
I added another thought to the end of that comment. Just something to watch in real time. It could potentially be the first community to get this ball rolling and they're doing a lot of the right things so far. Vibes is doing an incredible job of tapping into the outside world.
I've been going on about this for years and know what to look for. I understand the lack of confidence and I see that being a common trait here. I'm stubborn though and when I set my eyes on something I don't stop looking at it. It's been frustrating for me though, and people know that. Doing my best to not become bitter and resentful.
I also don't expect anyone to change. So when I see a new community and new people ready to go and make something of this opportunity, I get excited. And it isn't that hopium shit critics with no real plan like to throw around when they don't understand, disagree with something, or just feel like mocking others.
Everyone knows it's uncool to care.
I spent awhile demonstrating what can be accomplished here but where I failed was not having the outside market to tap into so I could simply show people rather than talking about it. Never saw it as being complicated. Could have done so much more. To make up for that, I try to make people see what I saw.
Not impossible. And right now the last thing I want to do is overwhelm that new crowd and community by stepping up and trying to explain. Too much, too soon. Not my project either so don't want to interfere.
And that low success rate you speak of boils down to building and depending on only the existing consumer base. The problem snowballed into this lack of confidence, naturally. Saw it coming years ago but couldn't do much other than point it out. Of course nobody wants to hear they're setting themselves up to struggle. Build it and they will come only happens in the movies.
The average user is lazy, a complainer, and simply says give me votes.
And there it is...user.
Are those with stake users? They seem to want prices to go up so their wallet is worth more.
You say I just try to rally the troops? Have many times have I written/spoken about the ownership mindset? That isnt rallying the troops as much as assigning responsibility, something people abhor.
The reality is the same marxist stuff: attack the successful while pointing out what is wrong and the masses are overlooked.
It is a permissionless system. Anyone can post at anytime. They can focus upon layer 1 coins and layer 2 tokens.
Not sure any of that is relevant. How much stake is just sitting here in limbo, because people don't like how the power is distributed here? If you want web2 users then you want people that just want an audience and to earn fairly for their work. Add the politics and you burst the bubble of interest, which is exactly what has happened. Most don't care, won't care and the "revolutionary" tech here doesn't matter nor won't. Hive has set itself up to fail from the beginning and only the few holding onto hopium, but only see through a tunnel stay.
Here's my reply to @mobbs, which is partly relevant here, at least in part,
How is power distributed? It is based upon stake. So what is the issue? The fact that everyone doesnt have the same power?
This is true, or at least for a while. Most didnt care about video conferencing until COVID even though the technology was around for a decade. This is the history of technology. It is always the early adopters who are first.
Yet, if they are here, what are they here for? Is it the rewards or is it a chance to build a brand? Or is it just social media interaction?
In either case, the distribution is not relevant in any of those cases. Oh wait, only in the rewards because people want handouts.
What does this even mean? What is fairly?
Not sure what you mean, but stake weighted power will only be popular with those who have the highest stakes. It's a failed mechanism, other than for allowing an internal economy to survive with just a few people buying and selling.
With tech sure, but not so much with governance. People don't care about the internals of Facebook as long as they can function as they need. If you think the masses will come and the majority will care about anything but earning and audience, then you'll be disappointed. They don't want to be loyal to a product. They just want it to work towards their benefit.
Handouts? So, the Journalist who spends months on a piece is asking for a handout when they expect that piece earns revenue and do it beyond 7 days? I can use this example for many fields, making your statement ridiculous. That's why we don't have professionals using the platform. Hmmm, I wonder why Influencers don't come or when they do, don't stay?
Stake weighted governance is an awful idea and user numbers show that. Also, stake weighted voting is why professionals won't make the earnings they believe are deseved without putting TOO Much effort into it. When the time frame of success here is realized, they leave.
As usual, you HOPIUM sellers only look at the issues with a very narrow perspective, which is why Hive is stagnate...
Really? So you dont think that people should have a say based upon their stake? Instead, just show up and you are counted the same as those who are involved, doing the work, and have an idea of what is going on.
We see this mindset all over the place and it is an awful ideology.
Yeah. Those without resources always want to have say over those that do have them. Sorry but I cant agree with this ideology or the support of it. This is nothing more than the proverbial class warfare. But now I see what you are saying about "earning fairly".
At the very least, not for governance.
You can't fix a problem if you don't understand what it is or refuse to see them as a problem...