RE: Hive | How To Fix The Tokenomics !
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I like the your idea that owning Hive should get rewarded more than creating content.
I think the rewards for posts are mostly based on luck. I think a lot of the content that gets upvoted doesn't get read at all. My blogs get a few dollars by automated upvotes within minutes after posting, regardless of the content. But there are others that receive 10/15 dollar this way.
I like all initiatives to discuss this, but there is not a lot of enthusiasm for it. The big stakeholders earn their Hive anyway and are fine with the autovotes they are getting.
A while ago made a suggestion in the Hive Discord if we could introduce Hive Savings, like there also is a Savings for HBD.
We could lower the percentage for curation and author rewards and use that for a nice APR on Hive.
The advantages:
- Incentive to hold Hive or even buy more
- Interesting for investors
- Less Hive on the exchanges, higher price
- Less 'overrewarded' posts
- Less incentive to shitpost
It's quite a simple idea, so it might just not be feasible, but I do agree with you that this could be improved. The system is broken now.
I wonder if this topic is on the agenda already. Maybe @crimsonclad knows. She has been active in the Hive Discord lately.
Hey! I'm always active everywhere I'm mentioned, though admittedly discord pings and dms pile up so damn fast that sometimes I'm not on par with them. I'm trying to make sure I spend an hour in chat and voice whenever I get off a call or a space though recently as you noted, to be more full sync accessible to go alongside all our chain/off-chain async comms.
So, of course we do have the savings "security" feature, which is the short lockup that provides an extra layer of defense in between you and an immediate drain. What you're suggesting here would be adding an APR to it in a similar fashion to the way HBD functions?
I can see pros and cons to this for sure; right now we struggle with HBD savings being the number one cause of inflation. If you allow for inflation on the short lockup (3.5 days), it removes pretty much all incentive for anyone other than the biggest curation fanatics or people really into governance voting to keep more than a little bit of fully staked HP. Maybe that's not a bad thing; it could solve some problems and compound others.
It's an interesting thought exercise. What behaviours would we see if most people had very little allocation power, the bulk of our inflation came from passive APR, and the price did more swinging since people would be able to buy in and sell out more quickly? Would we be happier with the lower curation/reward percentages if even fewer people were deciding on where it all went? I think it would be potentially good for creating more natural volume, but I also think at that point we would really, really REALLY need EVM and SVM compatible options to allow us to take advantage of DEXes to actually do something with it and lure in the same 67 big money degens that every ecosystem shares right now.
To return to the question, I don't know if this is on the radar; the upcoming hardfork is really centered around huge tech gains that make it so anyone can run a node on a potato, that we make it so that anyone can create/compose/combine/disseminate HAF data as part of instantly building and also accessing chain data super easily, and that sort of thing, because it's a pretty big part of attracting builders and cross chain projects in a world where everyone has accelerated timeframes and smaller budgets with agentic coding. (I have some pieces coming on these topics that will be used for brand content/teaching and some seo/aeo work soon.)
Past that, I'm not a great voice on this. When I started, I made content, and it was really good! I got on the radar of most curators, because it fit what they liked... long form, original photos, stories, and a unique perspective tied to a writer with a doxxed face and deep roots in the community. These days I post very, very infrequently mostly because I'm in the weeds on so much on Hive work that is not related to posting, but also because in the back of my mind I know the second I make one, it will go to minimum $20. I could sit every day and farm that, and maybe some people would be happier I was "more visible," but it makes more sense to me right now to be respectful and careful with that ...er... power? To make sure there's always room for others and when I do post, that it's always worth it. I don't think everyone should be held to this standard and should do whatever they want with their stake and this chain! But my version of that for myself is weirdly principled around how my privileges (perhaps not the right word) shape people's perception of and reaction to what I do.
I'm not going to lie, it's so stressful and mostly killed my entertainment posting career lol 😂
Thanks for your reply. Since Hive has no owner it's sometimes hard to find out who to contact if you have an idea for improvement.
Disclaimer: I'm not an expert in Hive tokenomics or tokenomics in general.
Similar or maybe even replacing it if HBD Savings if that already causes inflation.
You don't need to make it 3.5 days. You could also make it a term deposit. Lock it in for a couple of months or even a year and have people pay a fine when they want to withdraw before the deadline.
It doesn't necessarily need to be little vs bulk, but if there is a passive option, it might attract new people. People that don't want to be that active on the blockchain itself at all. Those who do can keep their stake HP. I think those also will actually use it better than those who only want to profit from the author and curation rewards.
True. I do wonder if, when the trading volume of Hive goes up on the few DEXes that trade Hive (for instance because there is a good savings option), if more options will open up caused by the demand.
Thanks! I think it is good to share your thoughts on improvement.
Again, thanks for commenting.
reach out any time. I've definitely seen many versions of changing power up or making an alternative with the 'pay to break set lock terms'.
Most DEXes right now focus on free EVM/SVM token inclusion because it's essentially copy/paste for every new token, and liquidity can be shifted quickly and easily across chains and protocols alongside the current 'hourly runner' meta... this is even before even addressing that almost all of the pumpfun/hyperliquid coins now are released and traded out by the same set of addresses over and over every day to extract. More fast volume equals more fast trading fees for the DEX or CEX, which means always higher priority than us. (When we started, you were hoping to maybe catch the runner of the CYCLE, let alone the quarter.)
Working with us is proprietary and without an official bridge or some other form of equivalent integration path convincing a DEX to do an inclusion with liquidity provision for free on our natural volumes, it's a slog. Bitshares (xbts) is an awesome example. Natively integrated DEX with real volume because similar graphene underlying tech... not used super regularly by most of our own users even because it's outside the current VM dominance where they want to be.
It's definitely frustrating from a growth and devrel perspective too as it makes it a super hard bargaining position to be in, but opening a lot of relationships and staying on top of them is what I can do while we try to fit all the pieces together on our end.
Anyways, I do agree that passively available options that aren't just baseline APR on HP (just under 3% right now) would be good. Arguably, better than ultra high HBD. People hold that and convert when price is very low for way more HIVE than they initially earned the HBD at, which means that while the debt represented in dollars is the same it can lead to a lot more hive than expected being converted and added into supply over time. That's what we're seeing. A separated hive APR with term lockup would be a more known entity in terms of issuance that moves more in lockstep with expectations and less with the fluctuation of US dollar value debt instrumentation.
caveat: I'm not a tokenomics/market economist guy either, so this is pretty out of my personal purview other than considering how it shapes the wider ecosystem ethos and brand story, and the resulting behaviour modification and incentivisation.
(edited because my phone's autocorrect added a word that doesn't exist without me catching it 😂)
I would say that to get rewards here and do well (especially for new users with no stake), it's not luck, but mostly a matter of looking at what kind of content gets upvotes from curation groups and bending your way around them. The problem is that it makes a lot of what it on Hive feel like fake pretend content just there to get upvotes. It's funny how many people who have been here for years with daily content and never made movie reviews all of a sudden became full time reviewers because you are near guaranteed to get curated since scrobble.life came to life.
I still think the right way to go about it, is that people have some kind of passion and want to make a blog around it which, as a side effect, potentially earns something, and not like in most cases where people just want to earn something and then start blogging about what achieves that goal most efficiently.
I kind of like the auto-upvotes, but it comes with a certain level of trust, as you don't want to have people on your auto-vote list spamming content just because they know guaranteed votes are coming.
Your blog really feels genuine and your wallet also shows that you are a net positive for the Hive ecosystem. That is why it's easy for many to put you on their auto-votes and rightfully so. Sure there are always others who get more and for some it might not be fully feel fair but I guess that's life (it's not always fair).
For as far as Hive Savings go, I generally don't like the concept of 'staking coins just to get more coins' as it's kind of a circular. I rather give Hive more use case by requiring everyone who blogs and gets author rewards also to be a holder of HP to get the most out of it. This will push more toward leasing HP which should increase the Yield for investors who lease out their HP.
Thanks for your response. I think we on agree a lot parts.
What I meant with luck is, that if you have the luck to have a following that autovotes you, you can post whatever you like and still get upvotes.
Publishing what gets upvoted most also kills the diversity. The short media platforms get overloaded with 'game achievements' at the moment that it's not even fun to scroll through them anymore for me (yes, I can use the one front end that filters them out, but that is not a solution to the problem).
The problem with autovotes and votes without reading content is that the rewards get too centralized. Do I deserve more for my posts than someone that is new? I find it unfair that a newbie, that posts the same content as me (or even better) doesn't get the rewards because they are not autovoted. Then they need the luck to have a real manual curator to check their post.
For them it's not very encouraging to see their posts with no upvotes, comments or rewards and others earn a few bucks on an automated post of a 2 kilometer walk they made.
If the inactive autovoted could earn more with their stake by putting it into savings, the people that really curate would have more weight. And I think in the end it would benefit both the content as user retention on Hive.
I kind of get where you are coming from and agree that those who get Auto-votes can quite easily abuse them, and it also centralizes the voting power quite a bit.
At the same time, it's not realistic for anyone to browse Hive daily, plowing through all the garbage to find something great which on top also comes from an account which is good to Hive. Nobody has time for that. I kind of like the idea behind Auto-votes in that it's some kind of patreon equivalent. You find people here you like, trust, and want to support in what they bring and to do so you put them on auto-vote. In reality though it mostly is more an 'upvote4upvote' dynamic.
However, the idea about creating a genuine blog and gathering a real following that eventually over time results in friendships and some auto-upvotes is one that I kind of like as long as it's not too much and it doesn't get abused. What curation groups should do, is scout for newer users with good content. Somehow they tend to end up upvoting the same people over and over again completely neglecting the KE Ratio, I think because they also often are lazy and here to earn a quick buck in the most efficient way.
Hive just remains a platform with a lot of flaws in it that need some fixes in one way or another but not much really gets done ever. or at least it doesn't feel that way.