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How so? It's a specific molecule with a particular structure. Whether you take a Psilocybe mushroom and isolate the substance or perform a total synthesis from simpler precursors, you still ultimately end up with the same thing:

Psilocybin Skeletal Formula



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:) I hear you. But I don't think humans can recreate some things is all...

I don't think we're as smart as we think we are and I do know we don't know enough to know anything much at all really.

There's more to things than meets the skeletal formula, see?

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Indeed there is more to things than a pictographic representation of a molecular structure! However, if pure psilocybin is the goal, that can and has been achieved by human beings. Of course, we human beings cannot create a Psilocybe mushroom, but that's a different thing entirely to what I'm talking about 😋

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😆

I hear you, but I'm not convinced. Call me Woo Woo (although I'm not really)...

but I doubt it has the same desired effect at all.

I guess we will see if the synthesized stuff "works" then. And what side effects and all that nicely expensive stuff to take care of.

Big Pharma is going to be very sad that it can't sell multiple scripts for those, you know!

Call me a jaded skeptic and a pessimist, rather 😏

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I understand, but I have no desire to call you anything 😄
Truly.

If the desired effect is to catalyse a psychedelic experience, then a quantity of positively identified pure psilocybin, at or above the threshold dose, will do that. How it became the key molecule is irrelevant to this fact. It is the active component of the naturally occurring mushroom. Any risk of side effect is the same as that presented by ingesting Psilocybe mushrooms directly.

According to Erowid that dose rate is 3-4mg and above.

Big Pharma is going to be very sad that it can't sell multiple scripts for those, you know!

I know what you're saying here, and I agree with you 100%: there are powerful incentives within for-profit industrialised medicine to create and sustain ongoing revenue streams. That is a real problem that needs solving, but it's a socio-economic issue, totally separate to the epistemic core of chemistry. It's an issue with how medicine is run: as a business, and not how we know what medicine is.

The solution to that problem is the complete decommodification of healthcare.

I guess we will see if the synthesized stuff "works" then. And what side effects and all that nicely expensive stuff to take care of.

Much of the scientific research on psychedelic compounds from the 20th century to the present has been done using isolated or synthesised samples. This is done to control variables, and whether they're inside a plant or fungi at the moment of ingestion or not, they work exactly the same way.

I am also a skeptic, and I think there's a healthy degree of cynicism we must mount when engaging with the modern world as individuals.

May you have a lovely day!

😊

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:) Well that's not going to get a good argument going at all!

You're a scientist. So, once upon a time, you would have been a sage or a priest in all likelihood. How sad you've forgotten your roots ;)

Yes. Of course I understand. What I'm saying is that the fungi has some kind of awareness and consciousness. It does, you know. And the healing comes from their "spirit" (I know, I know but bear with me because these are very special creatures), that humans beings can't possibly recreate. Yet.

You may get a bit high... whoop dee whoop, but that's not what these liddle guys are here to offer, I suspect. Sure maybe you'll trip out, but you won't be gifted the knowledge, see?

But I'm speaking form the point of view of journeying and healing. Not just changing brain chemistry. You can also drink mentholated spirits and get high, you know :D

I guess we will see, in a few years of AI, whether humans are able to synthesize consciousness then...

Who are you? And hello! 😁

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Well that's not going to get a good argument going at all!

Haha I know, what a waste! Isn't that what the whole Internet is for!? 😄

Who are you? And hello! 😁

Hi
It's a good question!

I'm not a scientist.

I think fundamentally we're in agreement and it's the language that's at issue. Maybe? We see the same truth through differing lenses and it's tempting to assume our perspectives are different and in opposition somehow?

Journeying and healing. Spirit. Awareness and consciousness. What these little guys are here to offer.

You have personally used these fungi for journeying and healing, yeah? Spiritual growth, even? Is someone's journeying and healing using just an active ingredient invalid or inferior?

How about if what these little guys have to offer is psilocybin?

(I feel like I'm asking a lot of pointed questions and I worry now that it comes across blunt and arrogant, but I'm really just having fun here and I hope you don't mind)

Of course, it doesn't just stop there, at the psilocybin, because what we're really talking about is what occurs when the minds and the mushrooms meet. Then there's the journeying and the healing you talk about, potentially. But other things can also happen. The fungi/molecule is a catalyst, as there is no strict deterministic, cause-and-effect relationship between taking the fungi/molecule and experiencing journeying or healing. With poor set and setting a person can have a severely negative experience: the psychedelic crisis or *"bad trip."

Drinking methylated spirit does have a more predictable effect on people... drunkenness and ultimately, alcohol poisoning.

The Universe is one single and unified whole, there are no independent parts. It's all one. Including us. Some fungi arose on this planet containing structures inside them that match up perfectly to receptors inside the human brain, like keys to a lock. Those structures are, in this case, the molecule we call psilocybin. Or at least, we can describe them like that for the purpose of communication. The brains and the receptors arose concurrently along the same timeframe as the molecules. The key and the lock grew together because they are complementary expressions of the whole. You said you understand and I believe you, sincerely I do, but for some reason I wanted to write it out... 🌸

Can I ask you something? Assuming you have used psychedelic fungi as tools for growth and knowledge, do you personally feel that using the isolated form is disrespectful?

There's this book called The Doors of Perception by a man called Aldous Huxley which has many choice parts in it. It's ridiculously verbose in places, but there's just one moment I wanted to share:

"Reflecting on my experience, I find myself agreeing with the eminent Cambridge philosopher, Dr. C. D. Broad, [...] the suggestion is that the function of the brain and nervous system and sense organs is in the main eliminative and not productive. Each person is at each moment capable of remembering all that has ever happened to him and of perceiving everything that is happening everywhere in the universe. The function of the brain and nervous system is to protect us from being overwhelmed and confused by this mass of largely useless and irrelevant knowledge, by shutting out most of what we should otherwise perceive or remember at any moment, and leaving only that very small and special selection which is likely to be practically useful." According to such a theory, each one of us is potentially Mind at Large. But in so far as we are animals, our business is at all costs to survive. To make biological survival possible, Mind at Large has to be funnelled through the reducing valve of the brain and nervous system. What comes out at the other end is a measly trickle of the kind of consciousness which will help us to stay alive on the surface of this particular planet."


Ooh boy. I am sorry! What a giant chunk of text I just wrote at you.


Earlier this evening, before I saw your reply, I daydreamed a little scenario while I cooking dinner wherein I had been commissioned to paint an image for the cover of an imaginary book. The book was a 'New York Times Best Seller' and the title was: "How To Be Nothing."

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Marry me. Except I don't believe in the institution of marriage (or in gods or monsters - anymore ;))

:D

Double hello!!

 

Haha I know, what a waste! Isn't that what the whole Internet is for!? 😄

 

No fun at all. You. I'll have to check in on Facebook.
 

I think fundamentally we're in agreement and it's the language that's at issue.

 

I think it's all about perception and so, yes, language and interpretation is the one (and only) issue. :)

I am blunt and, sometimes, people think it's arrogance so just be you. I'm rushed and frustrated at times. Sometimes I'm scared (😉)...

Maybe all "arrogance" is just this anyway. You can't control people's perception so... oh... you know this already :D

Just speak your mind, please. Time! And I don't judge people anymore. Honestly. Lots of work with this because it's one of the ways out of the mire.

Some answers and maybe we should take this conversation to Telegram because it's a long one! And it sounds as though you have things to share... and I'm ever curious! :)

Yes. Psilocybin kept me from killing myself when I couldn't afford treatment or pharmaceutical meds. Severe depression at the time. I have every faith in it.

I did use it prior to this for a low grade depression as well - ongoing life stress.

Yes. I do believe strongly in its use in therapy, but my approach is a bit different.

More physiological actually. It makes the brain more plastic and easier to "reprogram". But you need stuff like NLP (amongst other things) to do this for more permanence.

It also mimics the Seratonin in the brain - which is why it works so well for depression. Same effect as SSRI's - none of the side effects and you don't need to stay on it for so long.... and it's not addictive to come off. Of course. (micro-dosing)

As for the 3-5mg "journeys"... yes and no. It depends on who facilitates it and what happens after the event.

Generally no. Not once off, I mean. This is complicated...

Trauma takes a long time to heal properly. (the healing part) - ALL plant medicines are medicines. They are there to support and facilitate what is, basically, intention and hard work by the individual.

The plants don't do the work for you!

For healing absolutely. With the required action by the individual to work the process to get there. And it's brutal and hard work. (why so many people avoid it and just use the plants to try and do it for them *sigh)

Sorry if I sound arrogant - this is frustration.

Very no for personal growth and enlightenment. Good lord! 😆 Hilarious, in fact!

I don't believe in using psychedelics for "enlightenment" and personal growth - although I have tried this :)

Although they do show people more of the truth... mostly people aren't conscious enough (cognitively) to integrate it anyway. Pointless and dangerous at times.

But all of this is just my personal opinion and experience (of course).

I've had many "spiritual" experiences on a variety of psychedelics but none of them were "real" if that makes sense? They were only "ideas". Which anything is, until you experience it in action - see?

The shrooms communicate with each other, you know. It's a network... you know this part?

This is my curiosity... about the "knowledge" and whether plants offer it to us... more the woo woo stuff.

But also...

Yes - all of the information is right here and we can access it any time we want to, if we aren't too scared to see it :)

Psychedelics only help to eliminate some of the fear of "seeing" it, but if the experience isn't integrated (with an objective observer because of how the Amygdala and nervous system "work" to protect us / "denial") after a full "journey" it'll probably be a pointless "trip".

And proper integration can take working with someone for up to a year or more.

Iboga - now there's a really interesting root! This also works physically on the brain and nervous system.

So the plants and roots aren't simply chemical compounds, you see. There's more to this than just a neurological effect. I think because hey... who really knows, right? :)

We should talk more, fellow traveler...

as you can see, this interests me too!

As far as Aldus Huxley :)

I don't know whether you've seen this?

I sent this to my was to be life partner when he asked me what I was looking for after we met online on a dating app. Within the first few messages...

and he stepped towards me instead of heading for the hills.

Hard to find these days...

Authentic seekers and travelers - who aren't afraid of the dark. Are you? :D

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(Edited)

A marriage proposal! Wowie zowie, things are moving fast! :D
I jest, I jest...

I have to agree, I do not have much faith in the institution of marriage as it stands today, but alas my heart belongs to another, and we are in fact now married. I struggle with that contradiction on occasion. Most recently on a visit to deeply spiritual lands.

Thank you for sharing parts of your story. I am honoured.

I am sorry it has taken me so long to get back to this message and respond. I cannot do it justice tonight but I will be back again, I would like to continue our conversation very much.

The letter, thank you for linking it. Beautiful, startling, I was in awe and fixated reading it. I had known that Aldous asked for, and had received LSD on his deathbed. Just that small fragmentary piece of information, probably from a Wikipedia article or something, but reading through that letter was deeply moving.

“Who is eating out of my bowl?”

Hahaha! I do not understand, but that's probably why I find it so amusing, that line. An uncharacteristically absurd non sequitur from the man, at least from my point of view and from what I "know" of him from my reading his works. Lovely. Thank you.

What a beautiful relationship those two must have had. Were you scared when you sent that to your life partner-to-be?

I want to spend more time here than circumstance allows right now.

Authenticity... a difficult path to walk I find. Or to find my way back to the path to resume walking it. I seem to wander off track at times... making small loops and meanders around the scrub and wilderness of social convenience.

I am not afraid of the dark, literally or figuratively. I may perhaps even be something of a nyctophile: a coinage of recent discovery to me, though I think I am privileged in the sense that darkness has been non-threatening toward me for a long, long time. Not always, but for much of my recent history.

...........

C'est la vie

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Ah... all the good ones are taken :)

They must indeed have a had a very unique bond. I think going deep creates that.

I guess I was scared. But didn't know it. Denial of course. As we all do daily pretending we will never die :D

I "forgot" I had the illness when I sent that to him but, it seems, we speak truth to each other all of the time. Just not always directly. And to ourselves but we usually choose to ignore that as well!

I had to face the fear and walk through it. So not anymore. Perhaps small moments of it now. Occasionally. But less and less and almost none.

Losing fear of death, by the way, was the big one. The rest of the fear disappeared when that one was tackled.

"They" were right about this too!

As you come and go. Be you.

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p.s. I would read that book....except then I would have to do something :)

 

Earlier this evening, before I saw your reply, I daydreamed a little scenario while I cooking dinner wherein I had been commissioned to paint an image for the cover of an imaginary book. The book was a 'New York Times Best Seller' and the title was: "How To Be Nothing."

 

Genius!

Create the cover. I have the content for you.

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Ahh... yeah I don't know where I was going with all that. Wasn't saying read this book, I know that for sure. Sometimes I get carried away typing.

Intriguing about the content :)

I'll see what I can do about a cover haha!

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I just found these somehow. Or perhaps you just found these somehow.

Doesn't matter. I found them. And no need to reply.

Happy traveling :)

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