The Stupidity of Hivewatchers
The Stupidity of Hivewatchers
I agree with the mission of Hivewatchers
First of all, I'd like make it 100% clear, that I generally agree with motives of Hivewatchers. Meaning, that Spam, Plagiarism, Scams and Fraud should be flagged and punished, and should not be allowed to exist on the Hive platform. I very strongly discourage and punish these things in my city, and will flag them with my own Hive power if I become aware of them. I do not like these things, and will fight them powerfully whenever I can. So I share this sentiment with Hivewatchers, we have the same philosophy in this regard.
However, they are driving good people from Hive and making mistakes
Many that Hivewatchers goes after do deserve it, but not all. This isn't something I just decided yesterday, but my observations over years. They have punished and discouraged many good people. That kind of people we want to have in Hive. The ecosystem isn't that big, so losing even a few good people can be quite harmful.
The Case of Bee, or anikys3reasure
@anikys3reasure or Bee, as she is known in my discord, is a good person. She has shown her face and is very open, and there is nothing sneaky or scammy about her.
I can personally vouch for her good character. She loaned money from me, while she was in Ukraine, and yep, as you can guess, she had to flee Ukraine because, yea, there is a War there. Any normal person would have used this as an excuse not to pay off the loan, but nope, in spite of this terrible hardship, she still paid off her loan on time like a total Boss.
Bee is the sort of person we need in the Hive ecosystem
Hivewatchers maliciously attacked her
Bee works for the blockchain called Skale. You can find her picture here
Just look for anikys3reasure. Clearly she is part of the Skale organization.
Hivewatchers flagged and banned her for posting translations of Skale posts. Bee went through some lengths to prove her innocence and that she really is a part of Skale and as an ambassodor, clearly she would have permission to repost Skale posts and spread the good word. She even invited the Skale marketing manager into the Hivewatchers discord to speak in her behalf, but they would hear none of it.
She is still banned to this day (a year later). So Hivewatchers takes the position that a member of Skale cannot post translations of Skale posts on Hive. Insane.
Bee isn't the only one, I've seen Hivewatchers attack a number of good people, who perhaps made a small mistake, or in some cases none at all. I don't have time or energy to go over them all in this post.
Hivewatchers futile and mostly useless war against AI
And now Hivewatchers has to jump on band wagon and wield their barbaric monkey club at AI users. Look, I get it, in the surface, if you are emotional and not a very deep thinker, yes I agree that if I know that someone is using ChatGTP to write their posts for them, this is bad, and I would probably avoid upvoting this, possibly might flag it (or not).
It is a losing battle
I'm making the prediction right now. Fighting the use of AI is 100% going to be a losing battle. You will absolutely lose, 100%.
"Hey AI, please read my last 20 posts and replicate my writing style."
"Hey AI, please sprinkle the writing with a few human mistakes."
OOPS! Checkmate. What are you going to do? Fucking nothing, that's what. Ho ho ho! I am certain this sort of capability will be easily available inside of 5 years. (If it isn't already).
My opinion on it doesn't even matter. The sky is blue, whether I like it or not. The sky doesn't care about my feelings, and AI definitely won't care about Hivewatchers feelings.
So, Hivewatchers, enjoy your witch hunt few years until it's all over. All you will accomplish is temporarily scaring people away from a new technology, and looking like a stupid asshole. Congrats!
I've withdrawn all support for Hivewatchers.
I have unvoted the witnesses of @guiltyparties and @abit. Also unvoted their proposal https://peakd.com/hive/@hivewatchers/the-hivewatchers-and-spaminator-operational-proposal-for-the-period-2022-2024
I don't have any solutions, but I know this dumbness isn't what we need in Hive.
(badly photoshopped image based on a picture by HalHefnerART on DeviantArt)
Posted using Neoxian City
Count me one of them but it was a personal attack not hivewatcher. See, I'm a content creator and I can choose platforms to work but I had no idea that steem and hive users are rivals and it seems a war between them like war between Russia and Ukraine. I stop practicing writing here and rarely interact with my favourite authors in hive. I wish hive never become a platform with full of fake users.
Hope you don't mind me saying all this, I said all these because I'm a real user and brutally discouraged to be in hive. I was hurt!
In my opinion, the rules are clear to everyone and if someone does not comply with them, nothing can be done. Although there are cases like the one you describe, everything is very complicated, but we hope that this will not happen in the future.
Rules you say, life is very complicated sometimes :)
how comes we have rules (laws) dictated to us on a decentralised platform?
not very dynamic
not necessary agreeable
The problem with alternate projects quite often is people bringing their baggage from the corrupt world with them.
What I find sad is that Hive is not a good source for news/different perspectives anymore.
After @pfunk hate-nuked one of my last finds, I think that's it; I am on the sidelines, most probably on my way out.
Hi, I think that we can make Hive a good place for news and respectful dissent. I really think that here we have the people to make that possible. The specifics for communities like Deep Dives, for example, is that it needs to work in peer-review mode, boosting well source-based content, let alone the plagiarism or abuse issues. We don't need to agree with all the views, of course, we just need to "clash" but in "cemented" ground. Best regards.
Hive can be used by all the Russian propagandists covering for Putin's belligerent invasion, as much as they have the RC for. But that doesn't mean stakeholders will let them be rewarded for it.
I've followed @patricklancaster most of the 8 years he's been on utub.
I saw the fake body in the car, but I also saw him taking supplies to people that didn't want 'murican shells landing in their kitchens.
His humanity far outweighs the few bucks he will get dumping hive, iyam.
He is not a threat to the governance, let the coins distribute, imo.
There are 3 pfunks on discord, are you one of them?
I believe I am two of them. One account I probably made on the web is long gone. Not sure about #3.
I sent a dm.
Ah, so 'code is law' just flies out the window. Convenient.
I imagine that even if it is decentralized there must be some rules to follow for everyone
No! There can be agreements, different tribes/communities, codes of honor; all of that in a constant flow of change. And first and foremost: Responsibility.
The call for rules comes from people being used to being ruled. The making of rules comes from people being greedy and power-hungry.
The "rules" as you call them are all emergent within the decentralized system. The blockchain does not enforce them, at all.
The entire debate is all just human disagreement being enabled by a decentralized system.
Hive watchers should be disbanded and a new emergent something allowed to emerge from the decentralized system. There is nothing decentralized about Hive Watchers, and human drama has built up around it over the years and from the last chain.
There are no rules/laws as far as the decentralized platform is concerned. As with any permissionless system, people are free to decide what to do on and within that system as they see fit, and that includes voting up and down for their own reasons. This may include how they define abuse and how they respond to it. That's all completely decentralized.
There's no such thing as decentralization while those who have more money or more HP can impose their whims and biased view with more weight than those with less.
You're confusing equality with decentralization. They are not the same thing.
In my book and regarding the visible results, they are both exactly the same shit!
lol, what rules? Created by and approved by whom?
All rules are golden rules. I'm sure you can guess the rest.
(...takes a deep breath)
Having decentralization is awesome and great, as it gives people complete ownership of their own accounts. This, however, can be abused. The stand that Hive Watchers take is very understandable and crucial, and we do appreciate it, but let's table this burning matter carefully:
We are now becoming hybrids. Or better still, we are becoming cyborgs. We now have technology deep in our skin. We just cannot do without them anymore, especially with the way the world is now.
We have a new ability as humans, and this ability is to help us become better versions of ourselves. We evolve with every introduction of a new ability, and likewise the world. This new ability is to perform on a deeper level with the use of a new tool that we created called artificial intelligence.
I could very well sit down with a pen and paper and start solving for the area of a circle BY HAND, and that would take me a considerably long time to do that. But with a calculator with me, I could do that quickly. What about if I just asked some AI to do that for me? The whole tedious process would be even faster, and I would likely even have a more accurate result.
And now, in the creation of content, we have something to augment our abilities to perform even better. Brainstorming just got much better, more efficient, and more effective, directly improving content creation. This is just an example of how we use AI now to make our lives easier. Heck, even Hive Watchers use AI to catch AI-generated content. So what are we talking about?
However, with great power comes a great tendency to abuse that power, which boils down to the need for "regulation." And this is Hive Watcher's stand, I believe: to provide a reasonable balance. And that's why we appreciate them.
This is a new thing in town, although it really isn't, and everyone's just getting to imbibe them, checking out how they could be better so that they could indeed be better. Of course, there are people who will want to abuse that, and indeed they will, and that needs to be checked. However, would it not be doing more harm than good if we were to scare people away from exploring this new phase of evolution that's imminent -- and even from the space we call home, Hive -- and thereby put them in a conundrum wondering, "Should I evolve or should I remain primitive?"
There is no exact solution yet on how to tackle this. There is no exact way to deal with this matter in terms of how to precisely curb the true offenders (that is, those that want to abuse the system by being lazy and cheating others) and protect those that are truly looking to improve and make the world a better place.
Like you always do, Mr. D., you make rules, but you understand that things won't be perfect at first, so you are lenient for a while, pending the time the rule is cemented in your amazing city. I believe a similar compromise could be made on Hive regarding this burning issue.
Thank you so much for the opportunity, Mr. D.
PS: I made 40 error while I was just ranting, but to make sure that I am well understood, quillbot (another AI) pointed them out and I made adjustment.
Posted using Neoxian City
Thank you because of course this is a very interesting thing to read and also one of my voices because of course a month ago I was also spent for reasons that are not very clear because of that, this post really represents my heart. Right now I have retired from Hive After 6 Years of being here ♥️♥️♥️
@hattaarshavin retired because of hw ? Thats awful, but I understand
Hope you find a platform that agrees with you
I've had my own fights with HW lately and I promised Azircon to chill and don't overheat over it. So I will just do that. It's a bad thing if infighting distracts us from moving forward, obviously, moderation to some degree is required while the task and suitable toolkits should be kept as close and tight to the communities themselves as possible.
The Ethos in the Neoxian corner of the world is very different and that is one of the reasons why I'm buying deeper into it, while other communities are obviously struggling more with themselves.
To all the Hivers and HW out there, I want to say:
If you read this comment, I hope you as a person feel that I care about your freedom and that others do as well. The future can be a big WE BEE TOGETHER on Hive.
bowing to azircon, our leader, our truth, the one and only. amen
Azircon is well-meaning and cool-headed, I'm not crazy enough to disregard that. A good mentor should never be underestimated.
A powerful mentor that is....
I sure hope Hive watchers come up with a list of rules that have do's and dont's. People from all over the world come aboard not knowing what crypto is and often they are confused about what to do or how to go about it. It would be easier for everyone if there was a list of rules. Even for the employees of the Hive watchers team.
I also agree that farming and plagiarism be stopped without fail but it should be taken into consideration that even the worst of criminals are given a chance before being sentenced. Making mistakes while blogging on a crypto website is not a crime that invites such harsh punishments.
Thank you for being here for us.
Posted using Neoxian City
All users that are blacklisted are offered an appeal. It is true that they face no real-life consequences for the actions that harm the Hive Ecosystem. In the end, they are all anonymous or no one cares about what they do on Hive. When the "abusers" are caught they simply open another anon account. It's an infinite struggle to fight with users who are basically invisible, have no identity and never face consequences outside of Hive.
Guilty unless proven otherwise?
What is the meaning or history behind your
blocktexttyping? you know it breaks word wrap and makes you look like a lunatic right?
Original content, every time, or burn rewards.
Source any work/photography not your own.
Flag abuse, at least by a trail.
Watch what is being flagged.
Speak out IF you see abusive flagging.
Be nice, if you can.
We are tying to have fun here.
Most of what you state is true, but not all.
Is automating human social interaction. I have long held that is deprecation of the human values that social interaction provides, as you know.
It is telling you advocate for it on a post advocating for letting AI simply replace human social interaction on Hive.
You know I am not @hivewatchers most stalwart advocate, yet I do not disagree with their disapproval of AI posts submitted as user content. I do disagree with what they will do about it, but primarily because what they do about it is mostly necessary because of the inhuman weight of mere money in all things Hive.
We have far more important values, every one of us breathing, than mere commercial ease of access, which is all money is, and as we do not rationally and functionally weight these values we suffer society deranged by those we advance instead. This is why Hive is ruled by an oligarchy, and this is also why scammers will use AI to earn tokens on Hive.
I have stated it elsewhere, and keep having to repeat it, so I will link to it's original application on @hivewatchers blog.
It is the financial rewards that will cause people to do this, because it is clearly contrary to human values to do it. If Hive rectifies it's weighting of values to elevate free speech to it's rightful heady place, the futility of using AI to earn shekels from plagiarism will decrease to insignificance. As long as Hive instead elevates financial weight, as AI improves, @hivewatchers will lose any capacity to impact it.
The law of physics mandates what technology can exist. We order our society by our values, and needs must acknowledge we cannot bribe, bamboozle, or blackmail the law of physics as we do so. Going forward we will continually face ever more disruption of civil society as mammon undertakes to overwhelm all other values and technology renders it insipid.
Hive can act to recognize reality, or become evidence of evolution, and we are the deciders.
Power, to the people.
The rewards earned on this comment will go directly to the people ( theb0red1, celi130 ) sharing the post on LeoThreads,LikeTu,dBuzz.
Read such posts during the past few days. I also could not understand that a few advocates of cutting edge technology like Hive would oppose another cutting edge technology like AI. Something is not right there.
As a University professor, I’m dealing with students using ChatGPT to cheat on their essays on a weekly basis.
I wrote a post a couple months ago coming to the same conclusion as you — this is not a tool we can fight. We have a tiny edge right now because those using it are novices and don’t know how to cover their tracks. But the cover-your-tracks tools will soon appear.
As professors, we need to change our practices, which is something I am actively pursuing.
On Hive, we probably need to move to an engagement and genuine-reputation based system. Come and prove you’re a real person with real thoughts about real topics, and get rewarded in the process.
And that doesn’t happen by posting original content as much as it happens by interacting with real people, having real conversations.
In fact, that’s the essence of the Turing test. AI can’t pass the Turing test until it can fool most people during an ongoing dialogue.
I like the way @theycallmedan has been framing upvotes on CTT lately. Every upvote is a vote to help decentralize governance. Focus on upvoting those who can be a net positive force toward maintaining account level censorship resistance.
You probably are aware of the tool the chatgpt relesed for checks but just in case
There are better tools, theirs is one of the worst (for now, I'm sure they will improve it).
Care to point out to some of them :)
Send me a Discord DM and I'll send you a list of tools. trostparadox#8559
special if ai can rework the content to let it less look like. It will be in some months impossible to tell if content is AI made or not.
Some use cases are just too delicious, until the end of last year, people wasted their lives creating unique thumbnails for videos and posts. Now AI just took that over and people can focus on the actual work. Does that make a video or post better or worse, nope. Does it make the content more visible? Yup!
It's not even a fight, it's an evolution in many cases.
When more PFP NFT Projects? :)
Let's do some https://opensea.io/collection/owls-wtf Hive Owls?
You've got some art?
I can start to create the ART. Maybe mint them on DLux you suggest?
Let me pick up some tool and create a little bit. It's been some time since I actually used my 70$ a month Adobe Tools, but they keep cashing in - that's for sure.
=( o _ o )=
( ,, ,, )
This is one of the tools that were are using to detect AI texts in articles on Hive.
And many here have already agreed that it is useless and worthless.
Yes. Thanks for pointing that out.
OpenAI’s classifier tool is pretty much worthless, though.
It only flags its own output 25% of the time. And it only takes slight modifications of its own output to fool the classifier even when it otherwise would catch it.
And, it’s easy for students to just keep making small changes then running it through the classifier until it’s “safe” to submit.
I'm also a college professor. I think the answer will be oral exams in the future. Students can't take the knowledge they have. Chatgtp can only get you so far
exactly... but the saddest thing is that as time pass, AI will always be smarter and humans that use them at a regular basis will always be more retarded.
Look at the damage done by calculators... go on the street and find a teenager that is able to do mental calculus... you will be lucky if you find some. Instead go on street and make the same math question to an old man/women, 99.99% he/she is able to reply to you.
That's a sad reality.
A teenager that is able to do mental calculus? Ha, many of them are even unable to tell the hour on a clock with hands! LoL
ahah indeed one time i taught to read the clock to a 14 years old guy. I'm not joking
Hahaha, yeah! Indeed! I bet you are not joking.
I've taken calculus. I'm not sure many ever could do it in their head. However, I do know that the fastest I ever got at calculating in my head was when I was actively buying and selling real estate. I could do a price per square foot calculation very quickly on the fly. The more you use it, the better you are. If you never write your own papers or study, pop quizzes and oral exams will work you over something fierce
Of course Oral exams immediately comes to mind as a solution. However, it is necessary to acknowledge that writing is a different process, and engages different parts of the brain. I am almost an incompetent speaker, yet I feel far more competent writing.
I suggest including extemporaneous essay questions as part of your assessment of your students. After all, despite the advent of AI, writing will remain an essential human skill going forward.
Edit: until Neuralink is common.
The issue with the majority of these tools is that it is a blackbox. You cannot tell what it measures to determine if a text is ai written.
The adjustment to educational practices is kinda what should be happening anyway, it's just kind of hard and labour intensive to do so: Show your working.
A timeless curse of mathematics classes, something which would reliably filter out the fakes even in our art classes and, if it was possible yet, in my own music classes. The journey is, after all, much more valuable than the outcome @tarazkp ;)
It may be the case that ultimately, students will have to have office time with professors to demonstrate their human capabilities when compared with their submissions. I can imagine this being rather torturous if you have like 1,000 students, but there will be ways to implement it, i'm sure.
To me, simply handing in an essay or dissertation in Uni was never enough to begin with
I remember one of my sons struggling with geometry proofs because he was so used to doing extensive math calculations in his head. He just couldn’t slow down enough to write down every step.
He once failed a multiple choice chemistry test where he got 96% of the answers correct but did not heed the instructions to “show your work.”
That requirement can be brutal for kids like him.
Even so, simply learning to follow directions is an important life skill.
It is hard to fake when you have to show every step.
Yep. I get there's some necessary differentiation needed to be put in place, for example I teach choir, and the school, for fuck knows what reason, assigned a totally non-verbal student into it lol. So... yeah, have to improvise. I just don't think it'll be that much of a hurdle to overcome at least in the majority of courses, assuming an establishment is properly run with the future in mind.
Maybe that's wishful thinking though...
Reminds me of the movie "The man who knew infinity".
I haven't seen that one. I'll put it on my watchlist.
It's about this mathematician: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srinivasa_Ramanujan
was worth the watch!
I fully support your POV as presented in the bottom half of your comment.
But vast majority of people discussing the HW issue stays in the original narrative of Hive blockchain needs a content so it distributes tokens to content producers.
Now the AI-generated content is like GMO-food. Some hate it on principle, others do not mind and may focus on various different parameters instead.
Ultimately, AI-generated content can be cornered on Hive if that's what the stakeholders end up enforcing but at this point anyone stating it is obvious AI content needs to be policed is either narrow-minded or brainwashed. Even taskmaster reminds us the YouTube grew on cat videos right under his post that takes the no-AI-rule for granted (while trying to grow Hive by finding the 2023 version of cat videos for/via LeoThreads).
Now, any reference to academical environment is thin ice. Universities have terms of service. Content creating on Hive does not.
Does any cat video consumer care whether they are manual or AI? Unless the AI origin is shoved in their face specifically to make them feel deceived?
HW was originally funded by DAO to detect stolen goods. People who dislike that tend to have hard time in most environments for a good reason.
Let's stay on topic. HW issue is about enforcing a subjective ruleset on manufacturing goods (which happens to be text/audio/video content here). Fun fact: the word literally refers to producing goods using [human] hands.
It is nowhere near the stolen content/food issue.
It has nothing to do with grow-your-penis spam that won't destroy the chain as any human reader can easily DV it (despite taskmaster telling us otherwise in his best gatekeeper voice).
Objecting the war on GMO-content on Hive is totally legitimate.
Hey Steve, you must check out this article:
I found it quite interesting. A professor from the University of Pennsylvania deliberately asked his students to use Chat GPT to complete their homework.
Thanks for sharing!
Yes, I considered doing something like that. And I still might for future semesters.
We are still in very uncharted waters.
For me I’ve said it before and I will say it again. Just like you, I have no issue with hive watches being on hive, Infact without hive watchers hive will be a shitty blockchain like some of the blockchains.
But sometimes the way they handle some issues seems to be very hush. I can understand their plight against people using AI to generate posts. The announcement was made just recently and they are already treating people very harshly.
There have been instances where these people stopped using the AI to generate post the moment it was announced that people using AI to generate posts will be punished. Some knew what they were doing is wrong, others didn’t know sincerely so I think the punishment on people are harsh.
Maybe the effort should be made to spread the word across before they punishing people harshly or even if they won’t stop they should only punish people who abuse it after the announcement was made.
I believe it is important to remember that HW has the power to do this because they have the money to do this. The powers that they have are not democratic or given by a god due to their benevolence. They are people just like us, and they only are able to do what they do because of the financial stake they have in Hive.
We did not choose them to be our watchers.
They are already hunting me, and I've been haunted down. I simply admitted that I do AI-Assisted contents, as opposed to AI-Generated contents, and gave a defense to my course.
However, the court doesn't believe in making a defense, they believe in you feeling very sorry, and humiliated as opposed to being courageous and presenting your case. In my defense, I was even accused of emotionally blackmailing the accusers.
And to top it all up, I did a post, and wrote about some crucial matters, IMO. This offended them the most and now, I've been added to Hivewatchers blacklist, and Spamminators downvote trail.
I also made the same arguments, fighting AI is counterproductive, because you just simply chase people out of the system. How are they even fighting AI? By using AI to predict if something has been AI generated, which all my posts accused of being AI-Generated all passed, why did they pass the AI detection tests?
It was simply, I did AI-Assisted writing, I simply used AI to fill in some blanks here and there. I didn't just pack an AI generated piece and made it a post, I did a lot of work. It is unfortunate that this is the end of me here but I believe strongly, that we are simply putting efforts in the wrong places.
And also, it seems unnerving to make a person or a group, a custodian of Hive, a community driven web3 platform that is decentralized? Why can't communities handle their cases, why make a group the king of a decentralized platform? Something is not right!
What is not right is exactly what @heretickitten notes above. @hivewatchers represent an oligarchy, flush with stake, because Hive unnaturally weights financial stake above many far more valuable human interests, and this results in highly parasitic society.
AI is going to change Hive, and Hive can decrease the weight of stake on a variety of mechanisms, or it can become proof evolution happens. This is ongoing in many spheres of life withal, and not just Hive. Interesting times are ongoing, and more yet incoming.
You are free to advocate for a group that parses this or other matters, as the oligarchs did to prompt the advent of @hivewatchers. YMMV
Thank you for this beautiful and thoughtful write up Mr D and I am with you on all your points starting from the beginning till the end...
I really respect and support their work when it comes to plagiarism, recycling of post and other dubious act of farming rewards, but their latest acts don't just go well with most of us on the platform and regarding the issue with AI, this is something they need to think about well before punishment is being issued...
We dont have to loose more good men before we know some actions are wrong, thanks for this big D, I hope they get both yours and our point perfectly well and set things back up in order....
Getting free crypto is always very tempting. On Hive, rewards are obtained with effort and effort, this offers meaning and value to the blog and to the rewards themselves.
If everyone wrote articles using AI programs, the point of all this would be lost, also to the detriment of the value of $HIVE. It would be honest to write at the beginning of the post that the article is the result of AI, so that the editors can choose to vote for it or not.
Whoever having just half gram of gray matter in their brain, would recognize if some text has been written by an AI or not without much effort. And obviously without any need that whoever publishes such text has to warn anyone if they used it or not.
Same as with the images. Why the hell do you have to indicate the "sources" if nowadays with just hovering the pointer of the mouse over them or clicking on them you automatically and easily obtain the source?
Yeah, last but not least. I bet and I'm pretty sure you meant "curators" and not editors.
Thank you so much Mr Dragon for the vouch. I am actually tired of arguing, this is at a time when I just want to buy and power up Hive. Hivewatcher might think I made so much from posting but many of us are splinsterlands players. I have over-explained myself but I will leave power to the powerful. Some of us are around here for the LOVE of HIVE. Hive prepared many of us for the journey of crypto space and it's not always about the money.
If Hive powerful people want to chase us, then we are the weak, there's nothing we can do. I appreciate this Mr Dragon. A lot.
We are still awaiting a response from Nicole Lam to our email about permission to monetise hundreds of their articles on Hive.
You reply like a BOT, I know you didn't read what I wrote, you hate me for defending myself. LOL
Nicole Lam is no longer with SKALE. Get another name bro.
We responded to Nicole Lam's email right away and received no response. It was when she was still the ambassador's manager.
We have now contacted SKALE again with a new inquiry.
Let me know to who you sent the new email? I do not have a problem telling them to respond.
you are guilty until you can prove yourself innocent.
Hive Justice. 😀
I have proven my innocence with so many evidences... Accepting that they were wrong is the issue here.
I think it is best to acknowledge how this really works. They will deprive you of money unless you have more money than them. If you have the money you can do whatever you want, as they do.
I have no issue with people using their own stake however they like, even when I disagree, but Hive Watchers is a community funded "project", and they should have the smallest scope possible and have high standards in their conduct on line.
Because of how stake replaces human values on Hive, the 'community' needs only be one phat wallet.
I don't disagree with you. I point out it's impossible to meet your standard on Hive because of the unreasonable elevation of financial assets over any other human values.
It isn't about values, it is strictly an agreement that we voluntarily choose to use the DPOS governance.
I don't value their point of view above my own. I don't like them more than others and I certainly don't think everyone of them should be in a position of power, but rather I view it as... DPOS. As owners of the stake they have the right to use it to move the platform how they can/or want to.
It's also slightly funny because of the early mining.. often the skill set of figuring out the "Mine" and Management or Leadership do not go hand and hand.
While I might value other values, at the end of the day.. Stake Rules and those really are rules. These silly control moves of who can post what are something different "enforced standards" maybe.
BUT DPOS, stake is the ultimate tie breaker.
Code is infinitely mutable. Every moment is a new era in which we decide how we will act, and each of us, including as stake holders and coders of platforms and blockchains, proceeds to act according to the values we prefer to uphold. While we are here, I reckon neither of us has the ability to act on behalf of others, particularly in their roles as stake holders and coders, and, as you point out, it isn't in our wheelhouse to do so.
We can discourse on such matters as our values suggest to us are best, and I know I do, and am confident you do as well. No one claims Hive is perfect, yet majority stake holders remain intent on maintaining financial values as superior to others I am confident are of more import, and would rectify such problems as a shrinking user base and spam, scams, and plagiarism on Hive were they granted the import they merit on Hive.
Some of the whales have always treated the "posting" side with disdain and disinterest.
It's why they mostly ignore it, and allocate their stake to the "fund" which they also totally control.
Again their skill sets, views, desire and ability to drive something forward may or may not be ideal, but it really doesn't matter. They have the right to be wrong and back it with stake. DPOS
As an Asian I do a lot of grammar mistakes, so I used Grammarly & later started using ChatGPT to correct my grammar mistakes & bring a professional look to the writing. But that doesn't mean I created the posts by using that tool. This will be the next generation of the technology. It's like fighting against crypto, better we adopt & build a clear mechanism to avoid abuses of these techs.
I am not gonna talk about Hivewatchers. They do a good job against spams & etc. But they do mistakes & it's costly.
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I will but note that the more you depend on tools to do what you could learn to do, you will not learn to do it.
The user @anikys3reasure was asked by HW multiple times if she got permission to monetise SKALE's articles on Hive. The posts were effortless Google translations of SKALE articles into other languages.
The user kept diverting the subject keeps saying that she has permission to publish their content but did not want to respond if she has permission to sell it.
It seems that her SKALE manager Nicole Lam is not aware of how content posting works on Hive and that it is monetised.
The user had spammed with hundreds of such articles, effectively farming hundreds of dollars worth of rewards.
Also, the user had almost no interaction with the community for many years.
We asked Nicole Lam if she could confirm that the user is allowed to monetise their articles on Hive but we received no response.
I will send you the email conversation in a private message.
This you keep saying is tiring, and I am ashamed of this platform already, this is why I can no longer stress anybody in SKALE regarding this. You can calculate all the rewards you think I have made on these translations and request that I send the HIVE equivalent to @null as a punishment, This is how far I LOVE HIVE.
If I was not allowed to post the translations anywhere I want, whether monetized or not, I won't get Nicole in the first place to come on discord or reply to an email, currently, she is no longer with SKALE, but I can get her replacement to send you an email again. Her replacement just got back to SKALE, he was the one who consented to my posting on HIVE when I joined SKALE.
I honestly am tired of this, Not even after saying I feed on Hive. I should have died already since a year ago if I truly was feeding on reward from these translations.
Fuck off, I followed the case so I know what happened already. Keep on hurting hive. I dare you to reply with your own account.
He won't. He's been busy "removing content" on his account.
"Spamming and Farming"... Can you please define exactly what these words mean and what criteria is used to differentiate between "posting" and spamming. also what is the criteria for "Farming" vs. Earning?
It seems likely to me that another blockchain project would enjoy visibility and discussion on Blockchain filled with crypto enthusiasts. If people here don't appreciate the content, they can simply not vote for it.
If they are reading and voting for it, why is it a problem again?
You make it sound like Hivewatchers are actually multiple persons. It's not. The operation is mostly run by @logic. It's a one-man shop.
@Guiltyparties is your peripheral "head" in charge of an operation he has no business or time to attend to. After all, he spends more time dealing with other projects on Hive.
The third and mysterious @nuttin is just someone collecting all the payments and interests off of HBD. Who knows if that's an actual active member in the community or some red herring used to pay Logic some more.
I bet if anyone ran a cost-benefit analysis, the so-called "abuse" they curb is much less than the money the community is paying. Unfortunately, large stakeholders such as @blocktrades, @theycallmedan, and @smooth don't think there are any viable alternatives. I argue HW isn't needed at all.
That sort of organization doesn't scale. It's much better to develop tools and allow individual communities and their mods/curators to collaborate and figure out ways to mitigate things within their own boundaries and in their own terms. It's insanity to expect Hivewatchers to be judge, jury, and executioner for every community across the chain.
The accounts Hivewatchers now operate can and will eventually be decommissioned and used by Logic as personal accounts, as seen by the activities of @steemcleaners, courtesy of GuiltyParties, which he uses against opinions differ from his narrow world view. In fact, it's not unusual @adm is abused in such manner as well.
If you feel so bad for Logic, just donate money to him. Stop this charade of giving him undeserved authority to dictate what others can do on this chain.
I have voiced my discontent about them in the past only to be booted out of the chat channels by GuiltyConscious himself. He even tried to brand me as some anti-Hive element, but couldn't muster the so-called "evidence".
To echo @pfunk's sentiments about HW, it's time to consider firing them.
Everyone should unvote @abit and @guiltyparties as witnesses as well as the Hivewatchers proposal.
The keys to @adm needs to be changed to make sure HW operators no longer possess them. They don't deserve to operate like this on the community's dimes.
EXACTLY! Each community has the ability to mute/ban users who are misbehaving in their community.
You speak the true true.
Not even sure firing is the right term, more of a shift of responsibility towards tending to a well trained algo rather than being the deciding factor.
But yeah, preach the good word captain!
You are much nicer than me.
Understanding, not nice.
I'm an asshole, but also look at things objectively. :P
I'm looking at this after having burned down massive amounts of hours of infighting surrounding this topic. But I've been buying deeper into the Neoxian Tribe for months by now and it seems I was on to something.
These fights started to follow me into my dreams, and that's why I lay low a little bit right now.
Shoutout to you klye, hope you're doing well! cheers
I would agree with this if communities were providing their own reward funds, but since the reward funds all come from the commons of Hive stakeholders, Hive stakeholders have an unavoidable interest in how rewards are paid or not paid.
I'd be all for revamping how rewards work. For example, reallocate all of the common funds to DHF, and individual communities can then make proposals for their own reward funds, which they manage as they see fit. I don't think the one common pool has ever worked very well.
(The above was not meant as a specific proposal, which would require much greater attention and detail, it was a quick idea off the top of my head how the common reward pool which has not added much value and has always been very contentious could be restructured. There are probably better ways.)
We have had small curator-friendly tools developed at little to no cost.
The point is to enable the assigned curators to do what the curation initiatives or delegators expected them to do.
As for more sophisticated tools, I'm sure the stakeholders can fund the development of better algorithms through the DHF to detect certain abuses. There could be multiple people who hang out in the Hive Discord or whatever to scrutinize the feeds, etc. in the open.
The current system is broken. It's like letting the Demiurge pretend he's the Creator God of the universe.
As for rewards, yes, I do agree that some revamp needs to happen. This common pool is cursed.
That's a great idea, but will it increase decentralization and what are the attack vectors?
Host server, I suppose. The bot's database is separate for each server it serves in.
I see, that seems to be rather a feature.
Is this relate to above post?
Hw's maintaining the database of abusive accounts, and having somebody managing that daily grind, is something I have not seen a viable alternative to on offer, yet.
Hive-DR has been the alternative built by 'the community', but we lost our dev at the fork and haven't really recovered from that.
We do have many of the small group of folks cut out for this type of work engaging through our discord server.
While some development is ongoing, as always, more funds would speed things up.
Bad curation is the root of this all.
Curators simply refuse to take the time to vet their votes, most are not suited to working in anti-abuse, don't have the talent nor temperament needed to face the fraudulent users' lies day after day.
I don't blame them, I'm not suited to pull the trigger on flags, either.
I think those that do take on this chore, collectively for us all, should be encouraged, but my stake is a drop in the bucket.
Hw's is not the only option, and hasn't been for a very long time.
Ganging up to improve rewards is the solution?
Better, imo, to crab bucket the governance, individually.
Let the second layer worry about tokens and their various distribution models.
The more hands holding hive the better.
You can see how the curators have fed their friends until they are fat enough to feed their's all while they collectively drove the majority of 2.4 million people away.
Plenty of accounts, lauded as 'par excellence' by the most powerful curators on the platform, with high reps and sub 2mv wallets, while those that do powerup and intend to stay are pushed off the rewards tail entirely by bad curation at the top.
20 accounts take 50+ percent of the pool, day after day, for years now.
Some accounts would be richer than god if the coin mooned.
Instead of the redshills and the bildaboogers running the planet it would be hive whales.
That isn't likely to happen, iyam.
Until it takes 1000 accounts to earn the first 50% of rewards, the coin is not nearly decentralized enough for me.
The database of abusive accounts has largely been corrupted into near worthlessness by @logic's poor logic regarding abuse. I see automated @spaminator downvotes on posts from some of my favorite (non-abusing) users.
Is there some way to automate that?
Or, maybe it's time to find new management?
That daily grind is something that requires a special temperament, but that temperament has to have somebody ride herd on it, or the power goes to its head, in my experience.
I'd like to see the Hivewatchers proposal unfunded until logic finds a job better suited for him. Abuse may increase temporarily but the void of anti-abuse won't be unfilled forever. I've long said that Hivewatchers needs to fire him, or Hive needs to fire Hivewatchers.
Who replaces him?
Not many willing to do that job, that I can see.
Can we get a proposal to manage the abusive account list from somebody capable of doing it?
I'm seeing more a lack of alternatives than any real support from 'the community'.
Absent a viable alternative I wouldn't be in favor of doing without, there is a real need in the hive for what is being done.
I do favor more active voices in the anti-abuse community, though.
There has been far too few of us for far too long, iyam.
There has been a lot of abuse by anti-abusers. It takes a special bird not to be feathered by it's flock.
I refute this. Rather, the corrupt seek power.
I was handed power, a few times, I was not up to the responsibility, but I recognize that now, and no longer seek power.
No doubt the corrupt do love them some power.
Can you join this room: https://app.element.io/#/room/#hivediscord:matrix.org?
@amaterasusolar was dissatisfied with your treatment of her, and I would like to see the differences further discussed.
I am aware. I am not responsible for the beliefs of others. I provided factual evidence and they managed to avoid addressing it. I do have things to do that have the potential to benefit good people, and beating my head against the brick wall of someone that refuses to see what is plainly visible isn't one of them.
I appreciate your good concern for your friends, but am confident that you also can profit by restricting yourself to discourse that features mutual agreement as to demonstrable facts.
If you are aware of our discussion you will have observed I plainly and repeatedly requested them to quit. I expect you to be able to imagine how you would consider your request of me were it made of you in that circumstance.
Edit: I realized belatedly I failed to point out that my comment did not mean that everyone that seeks power, or finds themselves with it, has nefarious purpose. We have spoken before of your participation and I am satisfied you have duly considered my thoughts on the matter, and take actions you decide are proper.
I checked out of the conversation as tldr, which was what prompted my attempt to get a rehash in chatroom.
It's private, encrypted, and off chain.
I'll leave it to ya'll to drop or gnaw, as you wish.
One of the things I like best about Hive is that our posts are public, and uncensorable.
I have endeavored to exit that conversation without muting, because I am averse to censorship, and particularly censorship that eliminates information I am availed. I have managed to move on, and that is exactly what I have sought.
Your favourite users are arrogant, self-entitled abusers. Most of them are also as vulgar in their language and insults as you. You are now being muted.
Did you get this comment under the right person?
Says the arrogant asshole who will lose his sorry little ass very soon. Tsk Tsk
Excellent! now the assless asshole won't know what butchered his sorry little ass. LoL
I had no idea I was an arrogant, self-entitled abuser.
There must be more to life.
Hahahaha, ¡Search & Learn!
That may be, in that case, let's have an alternative competing proposal to consider.
I don't consider a free for all with no one putting in the time to identify and push back on systematic extraction (even if necessarily imperfectly to some degree or another) to be an attractive alternative.
People not liking it and raising objections basically goes with the territory. Everyone wants free reign to grab their piece of the pie without pushback, some reasonable some not. Too bad, free reign is a disaster.
And let's be clear about one thing. Regardless of whether you happen to like how it is being handled now, the vast majority of the (small in any case) user base is not affected. People can and do post and comment on all sorts of reasonable things and never get any attention or notice from anti-abuse efforts. We hear from the complainers, not the majority who are unaffected (except in so far as they benefit because the reward pool is preserved for them to some extent, with rampant abuse it wouldn't be)
I can't see not having a searchable, collective memory of the 'naughty' accounts and the details of that determination being open for appraisal.
How can we track large fraud schemes without this kind of database?
I continue to support @logic and hw's until a viable alternative is in place.
That's largely my view without getting into the weeds of how it works since I don't follow the specifics in detail. If there is an alternative making a pitch, I'll consider supporting it instead, or in addition to let them run side by side for a while and compare performance. If the alternative is nothing, then I don't support that.
I recall @themarkymark had a competing idea at one point but was shut down because the stakeholders thought it too excessive for the number of active users and favored HW instead.
This is the problem. Nothing will change because people like Logic know he won't be booted. It's basically holding the chain hostage for their supposed "indispensability".
There were days when HW had to pause operations due to "funding" and the chain didn't implode.
There are good people in hive watchers from the ones ive met.
having said that, my initial experiences with them made me feel targeted and actually made me concerned that I was being targeted by a criminal group or harassment. At the end of the day they are people, and fallible. Always will be.
From my personal experience, it strongly made me consider leaving the entire hive ecosystem. The problem I think lies in that the hivewatchers are not HR reps trained to deal with all different types of people and the way that one person expresses something can be totally misinterpreted by various types.
Ive long thought on this, since this happened to me about a year ago.
An adjustment of some form to the system is needed. After brainstorming on this for a year, my best idea is crowdsourcing it.
IF any person flags a post as spam, plagiarism etc. they submit proof of their claim if plagiarism and use citations, or explain their case in the situation of spam or farming. Then let everyone on hive scroll through these situations on a kind of news reel feed, and optionally, give people who perform the service of verification some reward in hive or hbd, they will review the post that was flagged and the case of the reporter and vote thumbs up or thumbs down, if thumbs down on any case reach some threshhold, say 30%, the post has no reduction of rewards. If 70% thumbs up and agree with case of reporter, then all hive rewards from post are removed and vote power can or can not be returned to voters up to u.
Maybe limit accounts to 10 or 20 verifications a day, and 3 reports a day. you can reward a reporter at end if case gets thumbed up.
maybe some type of proof of humanity can help, id do this even for free and im not in hivewatchers, a captcha, idk up to u.
ill think more on it. \
best wishes, there MUST be a better way, systemically
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I don't view the idea I described as ganging up, I view it as decentralizing the reward pool to the community level. Communities that are doing a good job* can pitch to Hive stakeholders to be subsidized to have a larger pool to administer among their members. Those who don't want to do that can still operate entirely as they like with second layer tokens alone.
* Good job meaning things such as active and growing user base, attracting attention and acclaim from outside Hive, not being overrun with spam and abuse, positive SEO stats, energizing real world Hive-related or Hive-sponsored activities and events, etc. This will all be compelling to get subsidized by Hive stakeholders and when aggregated to the community level are more feasible to scrutinize and be reasonably resistant to abuse.
You say communities and I hear gangs.
Groups that exclude voices based on centrally determined 'reasons' are echo chambers.
Perfectly acceptable in the 2nd layer foodie/gardening/latte art communities, political trolls need not apply, but hive governance is better shepherded by being widely distributed, imo.
Better in the hands of the many, than in the hands of a few.
Each community will have governance, that makes it not a collective cooperative but a hierarchy.
Putting rewards into the dao and doling them out is far too centralizing, for me.
The centralized ptb have led us to here, why would giving
themyou guys even more control over who gets rewardsgoverning control make things any better when this framework has failed to deliver wider adoption/distribution up to this point?
IF not failed outright, at least has failed to provide a thriving environment that welcomes newbs, real newbs, not just greedy grubbin' sockpuppets.
@penguinpablo has left, or I would quote him, but 12k daily active authors out of 2.4 million, admittedly mostly bot, accounts is a poor reflection on the hive's retention/networking abilities.
We were averaging 16k daily authors, but 4k have left the platform since then.
I can't read @arcange's chart well enough, but it clearly shows us closer to 10k than 20k.
I really would like to avoid being the crypto betamax, if that is gonna be possible.
Large stakehodlers have been determining who is worthy for a long time, how about giving the crowd a chance to determine that?
Do you maintain that centralized 'planners' can better service the needs of a crowd than the crowd themselves?
What happened to the smooth and @abit that forced an 800mv cap on the pool?
That resulted in some distribution of the coins.
Plenty of excited newbs during that run.
Absent the n2 it would have a different, but mostly similar, impact?
Not a repeat, but a rhyme?
Who can better determine sockpuppet/bot posts from real people posts?
Who can better determine who deserves rewards than the crowd receiving the posts?
I get the centralization of control while our market cap was 15m usd, that was a long time ago, times have changed, but how the crowd is managed has not.
'Communities' have flopped, except those centrally supported, accept that the crowd doesn't want them, outside the greedy grubbers.
No self respecting hivizen bows to their authority over who is deserving and who is not.
These are short, and @larkenrose's creations.
Funny how he doesn't post here anymore?
The 800 MV experiment was fine. And indeed, we haven't had n^2 or anything of the sort for years. Did it make a big difference? Not in my view. It might have made matters worse in a sense, since there is no ability to attract the true high value (not just crypto) influencers by concentrating rewards according to attention. We had some real influencers when we could concentrate by n^2. They actually drew attention to Steem. Now we have a bunch of mid-tier non-influencers posting photo and travel blogs, and Hive-centric blog posts, receiving somewhat less but still concentrated rewards, and accomplishing almost nothing.
No, you're not going to have a system where a million bot accounts (i.e. "the crowd") get to vote rewards as they like (which will, with certainly be to each other), being paid primarily by inflating away the stake of the largest stakeholders.
It's fine to have something like reddit, with equal, easily botted votes, as long as there aren't rewards. With rewards it breaks down completely.
Any commercial activity, anywhere, at any time, is run by the golden rule. Whoever is providing the gold makes the rules. There is no way out of that.
Are you saying that bootstrapping the currency by distributing it widely to achieve the network effect is not what we are doing here?
Because I thought mass adoption lies through enticing participation broadly, and not just a few bag holders divvying up the spoils.
As to the concentration of the rewards, doesn't that lay at specific accounts' doorstep?
These accounts have names and real people controlling them.
There is one way, but nobody likes to choose it, because it comes at a loss of comfort.
Comfortable slaves never rebel.
@enforcer48 may prove to be right, until the price drops below a dime there will be no changes.
Buying in doesn't make sense at a higher price.
The return in power is too low.
Time will tell.
Not very well, no. The actual, active human, non-bot, non-spammer user base is very small, and even in that small group the rewards are relatively concentrated (but still not enough to attract real influencers who might in turn grow the user base), and even more importantly the user base is not growing.
Lol, and no wonder, make a sock puppet, put some 'good' content in it, and see how the sycophants treat you.
How many 'you are not good enoughs' would you put up with for a few pennies of effectively worth less than the time magic interwebz munies?
Most people coming here do not get a real greeting, they get met at the door by people with agendas.
Bump every account's roi by 50% and see if things don't work very differently over time.
If nothing else the coin will distribute.
We bumped small/new accounts by FAR more than 50% when we got rid of n^2 and then again when we got rid of convergent linear that "penalized" small payouts. It didn't make a lot of difference. You would have me believe that the next 50%, yeah that's the magic bump that is going to be a game changer. I call bullshit.
Hmm, that is pretty convincing evidence.
You could be right.
Maybe people won't come back once they find out that a new management system has taken root.
One that doesn't endlessly pump inflation to the largest accounts on the platform, but actually lets the coin distribute to those that want to grow their stake.
I firmly support not voting rewards to any authors not on track to make it to 1mv before selling any, or that fall below some minimum expected of high rep accounts.
It is unrealistic to expect you guys to support the price forever while folks are dumping everything they are given.
But, this is on the curators.
Bad curation is hurting the hive.
That's you guys at the top, again.
Why would you suggest that doling out rewards to compliant communities could be a viable alternative?
That doesn't sound very decentralized to me.
It sounds like setting up a random number of new bosses under the even smaller number of old bosses.
It does sound like it pumps the bags of hierarchies and increases sycophancy.
It doesn't sound like user centered management of distributing the governance token of the hive.
But, that may just be me.
Not when they're actively flagged off the platform.
Every time you say rewards pool, I hear your personal stake.
You will be surprised when the golden rule is obsolete.
Did you see my post today?
I think rebutting it will be difficult.
'But, I have 10m hive on an exchange that is being diluted.'
I seriously think we are gonna have to go back to a dime before anything changes.
Curation rewards exchange pecuniary interest for those more valuable. Curating posts on the basis of how much financial reward they will create cannot but produce bad curation.
It is the elevation of financial value above far more valuable things to society that underlies this problem. AI is not the problem Hive faces. Were other values than money primary, no one would try to pass off AI content as their own work, for the reasons I stated earlier.
The ability to catch people posting AI content as their own will decrease precipitously, until it does not exist. Therefore the solution does not lie in that direction. Since the problems of spam, plagiarism, and scams also derive from the same principle, @hivewatchers has never been more than a kludge that reduced the symptoms of the actual problem through means that actually perpetuate the real problem, which is substituting money for more valuable rewards.
That is the underlying problem.
I blame laziness on the part of curators.
IF all of them observed a 10hbd soft cap on average content, the coin would spread farther.
I also blame crapitalism and its scarcity mindset.
We live in a world of abundance that we allow the crapitalusts to put behind a paywall.
On any given tuesday the workers could flip that on its head by working but refusing pay and to pay.
They make all the goods, why are they excluded from their share?
So we can have trillionaires?
People have been misled, for a long time.
It is not merely that we have been misled, because centralized industry has been necessary to advance technology from the Stone Age to the Space Age. However, decentralized means of production of the blessings of civilization are today the cutting edge of technological advance in all fields of industry. This is a new development, nascent, and the law of physics today mandates the paradigm shift from centralization to decentralization of production because the most advanced technology most increases productivity. Mass production, institutional control, hierarchical society, have gradually enabled technological advance because increased productivity benefited overlords with increased wealth derived from parasitizing collective production.
Decentralization eliminates parasitic losses, waste from mass production, and replaces mass produced cookie cutter crap with bespoke goods and services customized to consumer preferences. The massive overhead endemic to overlords parasitizing centralized manufacturing makes centralized production non-competitive with decentralized production. Decentralization eliminates the overlords themselves, and restores the egalitarian meritocracy human society necessarily was prior to the advent of agriculture, ushering in a new paradigm by enabling the blessings of civilization in such meritocracy.
We transcend politics, isms, and institutional power, even as we transcend localization to Earth itself and face the illimitable resources available across the apparently infinite universe. Regardless of any other factor, the ~2x increase in economic benefit to those that seize decentralized means of production inevitably leads to broad meritocratic dispersal of wealth exponentially multiplied by the raw resources becoming available.
I feel incredibly honored to be amongst the generation that creates this transcendence of crude barbarism and the initiation of incipient paradise that is becoming inevitable. I am sure my forebears have better earned such honor, and am confident my posterity will better comport themselves responsibly under such authority.
Edit: all we could have done, and did do, in history is to replace the old boss with new bosses. It is only the advent of decentralization mandated by the law of physics that enables transcendence of psychopathic overlords hell bent on dystopian totalitarian tyranny, and absolute freedom and inconceivable prosperity to be the legacy our posterity will inherit and use to create their felicity they will thereaft
Just to be clear with one thing: I will and never have used any account that has 'steem' as part of it's name. I don't even write or say that word if I don't absolutely have to, such as now. That will never happen.
HW: It would be a great help if people could offer constructive feedback to HW on scope, particularly new scope, and not only when they either got caught for something or someone they like got caught for something.
You gifted it to Logic to abuse. End of story.
I've been writing the same things since you guys tried to renew your sham proposal.
You don't care at all. You are just here for damage control until you can go back to the status quo.
Moar voices, better consensus.
I think instead of people complaining, maybe some others could be hired or offer their precious time to help attend to the growing needs of rooting out the rotten pasta. Nobody wants to be the bad guy, despite some wearing really convincing masks. Of course, I see a lot of the bigger stakeholders that don't actually care about that and want their profits maintained (obvious by a few comments). So, doubt that will actually happen.
Hivewatchers can do whatever it wants, but if it's getting funds from the DHF then there needs to be some accountability in the way it runs. A proper "charter" and transparent processes would go a long way to avoiding conflict and misunderstandings. As you know, I've seen a few and they are nearly always ugly. We simply HAVE to get better at this.
My view is that HW has a role, but is currently over-reaching and is not geared up to scale at all. We need to come up with a framework for how HW is going to interact with communities and educate users rather than just default to using the ban-hammer and it's guilty-until-proven-innocent. HW is currently operating like a bit of a kangaroo court so it's no wonder there is growing backlash.
Leonis, downvoted to disagree with rewards. I am sure you are cool with it.
Nuttin is an individual, who is not logic and not you and not me. I am sure you understand people can prefer to stay anonymous. Including you. If you know who freedom is please do let me know.
HW is supported by a DHF. If you or anyone do not like they don't have to vote for it. I don't think you vote for it. So that's that. It's a public process and stakeholders voted for it, including me. I find value in their services. I exercise my choice as a stakeholder. You do the same.
Regarding an alternative sure it's possible. Being better at customer service is possible. If you feel you personally can do a better job at cheaper cost, please write a proposal and stakeholders will evaluate it.
Otherwise I don't think there is anything more to discuss
Nuttin is only an individual by claim. You could be paying the same person twice. Lol
If you aren’t here to discuss, leave the conversation.
You aren’t here to hold people accountable and improve. You are just here to make sure things stay the same.
No. If you can trust me. I know the individual personally.
Please let me know if you are satisfied
With an account number of 499 you can bet it was one of the earliest adopters.
I'm still waiting for a couple of them to pop out of the exchanges, 'Surprise! I have 30% of the coins! I've been hiding that in exchanges and sock puppets.'
Until we cross the hump of the earliest adopters selling, anybody buying in is simply providing exit liquidity to somebody that isn't selling his principle, only the gains.
IF they left the pool to the daily users it would be different, but as long as they maintain their death grip on power, we are pissing into the wind, imo.
Doesn't change the facts of the tech, just makes it that much harder to come into our own where the actual community controls things rather than this shadow gov't we don't get to know who it is.
It is telling that their proposal is supported by the biggest accounts on Hive.
It is also some of those biggest accounts that love to nuke Hivers with dissenting views. Let that censorship sink in...
There will be no mass-adoption, Hive will stay a niche, dominated by the rich. And neither those rich nor Hivewatchers listen to reason. As some of you might have experienced, they keep on delivering the same old lines over and over again, and keep their stubborn politics. Basically they demand you bend over backwards to kiss their arses. Medieval.
(sorry for the rant, it is really frustrating to see Hive being directed into this dead end road)
Big fish in a little pond need to keep the pond too small to attract alligators. All this hand wringing about AI is closing the barn door after the cattle are roaming. Botfarms have long been milking the rewards pool for oligarchs that can't abide competition.
Thank you sir, you've spoken the mind of a lot people. I also agree with the mission of hive watchers, but they seem to be making a lot of errors at times. I have never been personally involved with hive watchers, but I've seen a lot of people get chased or incredibly harsh punishment for little mistakes. Some are even innocent. And the way they harass people in their server, that's a story for another day.
Hopefully they make changes
Edit: I also forgot to add how they never want to admit they made a mistake ,Just like in bee's case. Nothing wrong with admitting when you're wrong.
Posted using Neoxian City
Thanks so much, sir, for speaking the minds of many. It's such a disheartening sight to behold watching how people are being judged, stereotyped, harassed, and even called names for slight mistakes or rules that aren't obvious.
I strongly agree with the act of "hive watcher" in making the hive blockchain a place where only original content can be found and not giving room for plagiarism and the like.
But for this current judgment of AI-generated content, it seems unjust. Please don't get me wrong, but if at all a rule will stand or a judgment will be in place for certain things, then there should at least be a stated warming or announcement of the new development. I learned someone published a related post, but we can't expect everyone to see that (given the fact that over 100 pieces of content are published in a single day).
If it were possible, an article should be written to address the new development and the rules attached to it by the hive watchers themselves, or at least a circular should be sent in the form of a comment under everyone's post. That way, everyone will get to be aware and refrain from indulging, and whoever continues after such will definitely deserve whatever punishment is served, but ongoing punishment seems unjust for those who aren't aware.
Aside from the ongoing AI-generated content issue, the bee issues with hive watcher are ones I followed for a while, and on and off until now I've not seen a tangible reason why it drags on: because obviously she provided every requirement being asked, until the same one was being asked over and over again.
Well, I'll rest my case here, but I don't think this is good for a space that was said to be decentralized and free of censorship, and yet what we see is that there's freedom of speech, but freedom after speech isn't guaranteed.
NB: I use quillbot grammar checker features to correct some of my grammatical and punctuation errors in order not to be misunderstood.
I don't have much to do with HW, but I have seen them be a bit heavy-handed at times. The conditions put on people to prove themselves can seem over-complex, but if you represent an external project then it should not be too much to ask to get a tweet from the official Twitter account to verify you. If they direct people to their content on Hive then they may get more support.
I'm not sure where things are going with 'AI'. It will only get better at what it does and be harder to detect. People can use their human brains to decide if something is worth voting on. There can be issues with the big curation projects voting up generated content, but they need to have teams who can deal with cases that are brought to their attention (power + responsibility).
My voting is mostly manual and I do not delegate to such projects.
Hive is an imperfect and anarchic system, but we all ought to be doing what we think is good for it. Of course greed is a factor as it is elsewhere.
I agree with you on many points there. I recently removed myself from the curation trails (a total of 4 trails) I had joined, all except for one, which I have also dropped. Like you , I prefer to actually read and upvote content, rather just blindly letting someone else curate for me.
I get that some people do not visit Hive much, but want their stake to be working and earning, but there are many smaller trails that are better curated.
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Thank you so much, Mr D. You've spoken the mind of a lot of people, including myself. I also agree with the hive watchers. I can't imagine the blockchain without them. The blockchain cannot survive without rules. But the ways the hive-watchers approach things aren't just right. I didn't know about Bee until yesterday, I'm so sorry about what happened to her.
Thanks again, Mr D. You're brave and amazing.
I have actually been devastate since yesterday when I saw Hw comment and I had to stay away from the platform for a while, Joining the Hw channel for the first time and after I read the appeal message and convo, it all look like the mighty preying on the weaker ones. There is no announcement against aI or Chatgpt until of recent and they are punishing people heavily for it which isn't right, at least there should be a warning before a severe punishment. You really said a lot of things sir,
what the heck did they tag you for?
ya know I think spaminator may be a stalker. downvoted your comment, and probably didn't read it.
Anyone in doubt of how HW's treat people should spend a day reading their discord, it is literally sickening.
I had to join their discord for the first time yesterday and I shocked when I read some conversation/appeal, you have to accept the claim and severe punishment attached to it, a first time warning should have been a nice way of solving things, not everyone is here to scam the system
Thus are fortunes made and kept.
Here's a problem I have with hive-watchers - lack of transparency. If they are going to act like watch dogs and exercise control over the Hive ecosystem, policing it for fraud, they have to be completely transparent about how they do things and, more importantly, who they are. Specifically - their real-life names and the whois registry for their domain hivewatchers.com needs to have a real name/business organization with legal contact information (address, etc) and not privacy protected. That way they can be held accountable for any mistakes they make, such as the case you pointed out with aniky3reasure. Without the means to hold them accountable, they lack legitimacy.
Everything hw's does is on chain, or in the discord.
Have you tried following along in real time?
We know who hw's is, their real id's, we don't need to dox them any more.
You probably weren't here for the viable death threats made by people known to them.
It may not look like it to an average user, but what is being crab bucketed here is potentially control of the entire planet.
Or, maybe just a chunk of it.
Either way, kyc is for slaves, not free people.
Free people don't seek permissions.
The economic system(POS) that ensures there be an Oligarchy is the issue and is why after 7 years steem now Hive only has a handful of active users. It's this oligarchy that allows HW to exist and a few that control the platform. Note that if Hive actually blows up the rewards pool will significantly thin out taking a huge chink of earnings out of their pockets, so they aren't really interested in that happening. Let that sink in...
Also note that there are many other POS projects where Oligarchies aren't the result, so it doesn't need to be this way. The powers that be will never willingly give up that power, which is why improvements that are needed will never happen.
The smartest comment in this thread! They created a community with a claim to decentralization, then they introduced centralized regulation there. And for 7 years they have been discussing what exactly could have gone wrong😜
Exactly! The Oligarchy of Stake.
I feel so sorry for the @anik3reasure incidence. One year is a long time to allow such a wonderful person come back to the blockchain.
I can confirm that she is a good person too, at least we were together in the defunct uptrennd.
However, that doesn't take back the fact that the Hivewatchers are doing a great job keeping this place clean and void of spammers.
Possibly, the oy solution to this is that the Hivewatchers could be integrated into the ecosystem as a part that moderates the space. Instead of being a one-man show, it becomes what everyone appointed into the moderation team sees and work together for the better of the blockchain. That will help a lot. At least, it will no chase away the good hands from this place.
We are losing so many members, i am so happy you opened the subject as a whale , you and @acidyo ...finally !
Marky has had enough so i doubt he will speak up but at least you guys did it !
I am so giving you my follow, even though i am no whale.
You are invited to come get killed in psyberX
If you think that threatening me and @Abit and shitting on everything else we've done because your friend (who I'm sure is embarrassed by this tantrum) got caught with AI posts is going to get you anywhere, you have another thing coming. We are not leaving Hive, we are not stopping our various contributions to Hive, and we do not respond to threats.
If you have a problem with how AI is treated then you are welcome to come in agreement with the general community that Hive should welcome all AI texts and AI art. Monetizing AI, letting all the botnets flourish, by all means. I'm not sure how we're supposed to promote Hive afterwards when it's full of plagiarism but I guess there's always those "make free money from home" ads on Craigslist.
Edit: I don't normally edit like this but I want to clarify why I'm responding to the witness portion. Doesn't matter if its about my witness or any other witness. If it was simply criticism of HW then that's what's supposed to happen. That's freedom of speech. But when we start going after governance that's a problem and it's a problem because if we go back three years, we remember that the original chain was lost in part because one group wanted to alter governance and campaigned against witnesses. This is no different than what people who claimed to represent the Korean community did pre-Hive. They incited others to vote as they've instructed, they supported the hostile takeover enabling it, and they directly contributed to the theft of millions from innocent witnesses and stakeholders. You are trying to change part of the consensus for a frivolous reason, without taking into mind the security of Hive, just like them. There's no place for a repeat of that in any form on Hive.
Showing your ugly side now? Got tired of putting up a meek facade to @blocktrades, et al?
You deserve everything that's coming to you on this chain. There's a reason why people are annoyed. Sounds like you don't like to be held responsible for being the piece of human refuse you really are.
The only person getting "free money" is your jobless friend, Logic. You protect problematic people throughout your career, just like how you shielded @walden, aka @jaguar.force for years. And that's not the only piece of garbage you tried to utilize on this chain.
Do us a favor, stay in the background and stfu.
Stakeholders should unvote you. You don't deserve to be a consensus witness.
Look man, I know you probably said something to me before you blocked me back then but I either missed it or it escapes my mind, as I still have no idea what is going on. But I do genuinely have no clue why that happened when we used to talk just fine. The only message that comes close is when you said I've taken on a lot and I don't disagree with it as it is a lot of work. Can't say much about Walden who was active back in the pre-Hive days which is quite a long time ago and has nothing to do with Hive.
Keep on pretending you don't know what happened. You are a lying piece of shit.
I genuinely don't know. You blocked me long before any issue in MM. You can unblock me on Discord and we can resolve it.
Go fuck yourself in your ivory tower.
The time for "negotiation" has long passed.
There was no time because you blocked me. What's the point of arguing for another year? I've got no ill will towards you.
GO. FUCK. YOURSELF. IN. YOUR. IVORY. TOWER.
I don't do backroom deals with someone like you.
There is nothing for you to make a deal with me about. I don't make deals. Merely trying to figure out what happened.
What is up with this quote block-text comments from you and this team? Comes across poorly formatted and looks horribly unprofessional....what am I missing?
Pretty sure it's a dapp thing related to the comment being downvoted. Peakd shows it with that blocky text, while Ecency has a banner over the comment instead saying, "This content got low rating by people." So nothing to do with how the comment was written, just how the dapp is designed to display.
Oooh thank you Im going to talk to peakd about this!
If found that if you click the comment link (bringing it up in a new tab) PeakD displays normally, which is how I deal with the clunky looking text when it happens (and I care to read it...lol). And you're very welcome. 😊
Can i say something 👋🏻
People who use those AI art say it is their own property because the BOT said so.
Same for poems etc...
I have seen posts in Hive using 100% AI art and no DV .
With AI allowness to make everyone "artists" or "poets"
It is going to be a tough one to follow, even if hive removes from the code the allowance of using internet photos ( with links ) ...the matter of using few words to have a masterpiece we can call our own is impossible to stop.
I think it is a war against people who take time to produce quality art and writing.
A war we cannot win since they own AI who owns them.
I use AI to help me code these days.. Not for making functions but for helping me auto type out tedious or monotonous code blocks.
Time to embrace AI is now.. Fighting against the tide will only stifle one's ability.. it's a force multiplier at this point, not a drop in replacement.
I totally agree AI is amazing for coders and devs !
But to make art and poems ? and call it your own because you spitted few words .
Some people really take it seriously and think it takes a mastermind like them with experience in life to spit few words and make AI create a masterpiece, which is finally really them and theirs.
At least it help us see all the Pervert narcissists out there , the psychopaths , the fabulateurs who spit few words and feel like great artists.
You know my art and i know yours ... no AI will copy those brains of ours 😂
lol, I have been using CodeGeeX in VS Code.. And it does almost exactly what you express above.. I start a line of code and it guesses the autofill for it.. a lot of the time it's exactly what I was going to write. Now does that mean I'm cheating on coding? lol, yes and no.. I type less to get the same result. I call it a force multiplier. Sometimes it feels like it is reading my thoughts but I know it's just reading my previous coding style and adapting to predict it. Neat tech anyways.
If someone trains an AI art bot on MS-paint dick drawings that would be hilarious and disturbing.. Maybe when I get caught up on coding projects I'll have a whack at it. XD
Nah ...no one and nothing can create our perverted art 😛
That's true, anyone can be a great artist or poet with AI. That's why what's being asked is for people to simply state in their posts that the piece of content uses AI. Same as where the piece of content is from elsewhere on the internet. Without that statement we end up with genuine Hive artists and poets having their art overshadowed by machines.
Totally .... yeah links are needed , but honestly you can tell 100% when it is AI and when it is human real art .
At least , it will help to have original art , somehow unique and it will stop using internet photos.
I didn't read a threatening tone in any of this comment chain to be honest..
Am I missing something here or? Threats perceived or feelings of persecution are pretty normal when you have people questioning the validity of what you are doing, but in all honesty man I don't think that taking humans 100% out of the loop is the best way to tackle this stuff, automation of plagiarism and whatnot is probably a way to go, but would still need people to oversee the stuff. Certainly would take the animosity and human bias mostly out of the equation.
I get you and enforcer48 have previous beef or whatever.. But ultimately I think nothing that has been done is beyond forgivable, nor should one let person feelings dictate action when they are put in positions which require all but entirely stoic reaction to things, be it personal attacks or attacks on their work.
AI is here to stay and will almost certainly become the dominant means of posting to the internet.. Most HIVE posts are shitposts to begin with, not sure I like the idea of AI posting either, but maybe some of the content generated will actually get us back on the map like the STEEM days SEO wise. Gotta evolve with the tech and accept that things are changing.. If we see an uptick in AI generated content, maybe it's time to add AI-genned flags to posts or something. Dunno.
Anyways, regardless of the bullshit I am not one to shit on you for the work you have been doing, do I agree with all of it? Nah, but that doesn't change the fact that you have been working with what certainly started out as noble intent.
Ya'll should bury the hatchet though fight wise. Personal grudges and dick jousting over old beef or bias isn't really something that should be determining factor on who is allowed where or treated differently.
I edited my comment to further explain what I meant. I realize it was confusing.
Appreciated. I'm not even 3rd party in this, just seeing fallout from things and trying to get where the beef or disdain is being generated from.
Neither you or enforcer are enemies of the community, same side at the end of the day. Hopefully ya'll can bury the hatchet or atleast be civil to eachother. Cheers.
Yeah that's true, we do agree more than disagree in my view.
Yeah man, Never really had bad interactions or when there was misunderstanding you were always willing to atleast talk civilized with me or explain stuff, which garners respect in my books. I don't believe you're a bad actor, nor do I think you go out of your way to mess with people most of the time. Bad blood happens, it's how one holds a grudge long term that ultimately matters.
Anyways, hope things get smoothed out.
Haters gonna hate, misunderstandings gonna happen, either way just continue to evolve and do better each day. Cheers.
Screw off. You aren't the only "community witness" on the chain. Don't try to compare this situation to JSun colluding with Binance to overwhelm consensus.
I was referring to the 'Korean community'. Not JS and his dealings. That's another matter and unrelated.
You aren't that special. Th