The Hivewatchers Dilemma
These things happen from periodically on Hive.
Over the last 24 hours, there were a few articles posted about Hivewatchers. It is something that crops of once in a while, often pointing to a larger issue.
For those who don't know, Hivewatchers is an account that is tasked with "policing" the blockchain. It goes around compiling a list of accounts and blacklisting those who are detrimental to the community. The main focus is plagiarism and spammers.
Much of this article stems from the one posted by @neoxian titled The Stupidity of Hivewatchers and a follow up by @ecoinstant called My experience with Hive Watchers.
So let us dive right in.
Emotion
Right off the bat we get emotion. Here is where we run off the rails.
That is not to say the points being made are wrong or should not be considered. However, name calling and other attacks get us nowhere. We are obviously dealing with an emotional issue yet we need to maintain a cool head.
The best NFL quarterbacks (eggball to @belemo) have the same demeanor whether they are up or down by two touchdowns. Then we have the opposite who is Ryan Leaf and a quick search reveals how his career went.
So let us try to take this to a level that is constructive.
Downvotes
The issue here, in my view, has less to do with Hivewatchers and more to do with downvotes. This is something that was argued from the beginning. We keep reverting back to this without much solution.
That isn't to say we should not bring it up periodically along with working actively to improve things. That should be Hive's mantra: consistent improvement. I am sure most of the community is open to ideas that make things better.
Unfortunately, this is a very tough situation to navigate. While people get understandably upset and we know there is abuse, they are a necessary part of the ecosystem. This is especially true when we are dealing with spammers and overt plagiarists.
Hence, this is discussion is actually part of a larger one.
Defund
It was pointed out that Hivewatchers is being funded through a proposal. So, naturally, there are calls to defund them.
Where have we heard that before? Didn't we see a great deal of emotion tied to that in the United States? What happens when you defund the policing entity? Crime goes up. Simple logic should have warned people of that.
What happens if we defund Hivewatchers without an acceptable solution? It is likely we see the amount of spam and plagiarism increase.
Does that mean the point to take their funding away is misplaced? Not necessarily. That might be the appropriate move. However, without a viable alternative, whatever they are counteracting will return.
One point that must be made is that, from my observation, is the comment sections are relatively free of spam such as grow your penis, 1% mortgage rates, and make $1M in 2 days with my online program ads.
Take a look at the spam in the comment sections on YouTube, most of which is autogenerated.
Most Do Nothing
Here is another problem that exists, not only on Hive, but in most organizations. The sad reality is most people are slugs. They will not get involved nor lift a finger if they do not have to. We know most organizations that 95% of the work is done by 10% of the people.
We see it all the time on Hive. How many projects are in desperate need of more people yet are struggling with a few? Of the thousands on here, how many really do anything more than put up posts seeking to make some rewards? Hell, most don't even comment on replies to their own articles.
Yet, you go on Twitter or Discord and they are there day-after-day.
It was mentioned that people like @blocktrades, @theycallmedan, and @smooth basically delegate the responsibility for fighting spam to Hivewatchers. Unlike what was just mentioned, these three are not sitting around doing nothing. Builders are too busy for that. Personally, I think creating smart contract platforms, core development, scaling of the blockchain, decentralized sidechains, and moving HBD forward should remain their focus.
Remove Layer 1 Rewards
This has been brought up on a number of occasions. Leaving aside the lack of infrastructure at the moment, it was presented that we move the reward system from the base layer.
On the surface this appears that it might solve the problem. Or perhaps it just relocates where the fights take place. If we create a token to act as Hive in terms of rewards, will this stop discussions like this? Probably not. The only thing this accomplishes is moving the fight.
The fact remains that $HIVE, in addition to being an access token, is used for governance. Anyone can come to earn and start to participate in that regard. Removing this means that we are basically restricting the governance to the [witnesses](https://leofinance.io/@leoglossary/leoglossary-witness-hive0 who will be the ones still paid out at the base layer. Everyone else will have to buy it on the open market (aside from stake already accumulated).
As we can see, there is no easy answer to this.
Who Is Going To Do The Policing?
If we operate from the presumption Hivewatchers is completely inept, tone deaf, and a total failure, then who is going to do the policing?
Here is direct quote from the first article:
I don't have any solutions, but I know this dumbness isn't what we need in Hive.
That is very convenient. Not for nothing, it is easy to point out the shortcomings of another (or a system), engage in name calling, and then offer nothing. We see it all the time on Hive.
So, once again, who is going to do the policing? Who will spend their days fighting spam and plagiarism? Is another team ready to step up and give it a shot? If that is the case, then let's fund them and see what happens.
Sadly, I have a feeling there is nobody ready to take on this role.
Perhaps Hivewatchers needs more people. If the single person is not cut out for it, maybe more should be involved. Now we harken back to the fact most will not lift a finger.
AI Generated Content
This was another point brought up that is worthy of a quick comment.
Here is what was stated:
And now Hivewatchers has to jump on band wagon and wield their barbaric monkey club at AI users. Look, I get it, in the surface, if you are emotional and not a very deep thinker, yes I agree that if I know that someone is using ChatGTP to write their posts for them, this is bad, and I would probably avoid upvoting this, possibly might flag it (or not).
And then:
So, Hivewatchers, enjoy your witch hunt few years until it's all over. All you will accomplish is temporarily scaring people away from a new technology, and looking like a stupid asshole. Congrats!
Here is what the Hivewatchers article said:
Any text created by AI should be treated as an outside source, which means it must be quoted, or print-screened. Basically, treat it like any other quote from any other source.
Please remember that Hive prides itself for original content; at least 50% of writing in the post must be original.
If your post does not fit these criteria, please decline the rewards.
When we step back from the ledge, this seems reasonable. As a policy, it is clear: cite when you use AI.
Here is where we have to distinguish reasonable versus will it work. This appears to be a sensible approach and one that makes sense. In the long run, will it work? That is entirely up to debate.
It might be that, as some point, we will be unable to distinguish at all between human and computer written. In fact, it is likely we will get there. However, we are not at this point now.
If someone is really interested in an AI generated community, create a layer 2 token and reward all the AI generate content you want. That is what second layer applications are for.
The Solution
So what is the solution to all this?
Basically, it all boils down to the end of small thinking on Hive. I get attacked at times for the numbers I toss out and vision that I have of the future. However, the reality is people are arguing over mouse turds.
Do you really think Hivewatchers will be an issue with 5 million daily active, social media users on Hive? Does anyone think the base layer will be the only one with value? What happens when some of the layer 2 tokens have market caps over $100 million?
Hence, the solution to many of Hive's problems is numbers. We get millions of people posting on a daily basis, the numbers simply get too large for any one person (or small group) to monitor. If each person is averaging 5 on-chain posts or comments, that is 25 million in a day.
Over course, that that point, like most social media platforms, there will be a ton of garbage posted. There is also a good chance much of it will be computer generated. And, yes, in the end, there will be spam and plagiarism.
With those numbers, however, not only will we see a change in the value of the base layer, this will extend to many communities at the second. Here is where we see the focus shift.
Hive is an immutable database. That is true whether the text is spam, AI generated, downvoted, or a total shitpost. Go to Hiveblocks and it is there.
Time will determine what gets posted on-chain based upon how valuable this digital real estate becomes. If it costs the equivalent of 100 HP to post a comment due to resource credit increases, then we will see that at the second layer.
That means only the most important stuff (to those posting) gets put on-chain.
In Conclusion
We must remember that Hive is a complex, organic system that is continually expanding. It sucks when people leave because of downvotes. However, over the years we saw more than a million accounts opened without activity. Thus, most left and it had nothing to do with downvotes.
Through all of this, we will prevail. Compare Hive to the way things were in 2017 and we see night and day. Continued effort is improving things. In the blockchain world, you can either be like Bitcoin which changes at the pace of an oil taker or Solana which updates every 3 minutes while breaking equally as often.
Hivewatchers, like most things in this industry, is a dilemma. We need to work on solutions, even if they are incremental.
Ideas are a starting point but, without people to implement them, it is nothing more than theory.
Bringing attention to these issues is how we move forward.
If you found this article informative, please give an upvote and rehive.
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Downvote everything is way to go. 😂
@sondershausen, sorry! You need more $ALIVE to use this command.
The minimum requirement is 1000.0 ALIVE staked.
More $ALIVE is available from Hive-Engine or Tribaldex
That could be one approach.
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Everything? Even a complimentary comment?
https://twitter.com/1331330355513745413/status/1632395369672736768
https://twitter.com/1884771912/status/1632411620352614409
https://twitter.com/1415155663131402240/status/1632705059430739975
The rewards earned on this comment will go directly to the people( @taskmaster4450le, @shiftrox, @rzc24-nftbbg ) sharing the post on Twitter as long as they are registered with @poshtoken. Sign up at https://hiveposh.com.
I once had a run in with HW some time ago. They do a great job definitely, and still a few areas could be improved in how they work. I think their stand on AI content is not difficult - put the source of AI content. I would have had an issue if they completely outlawed AI assisted content.
To disband HW entirely without a better replacement will lead to mayhem. And their proposal could still stand. Maybe we could think of relaxing a bit the punishment for offenders, especially giving newbies a little more opportunity to correct their mistakes.
Like I said earlier, they could look inwards and see an area to improve. But for their work, its very much important here
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I understand the emotion people have and I am not discounting that people are citing legitimate circumstances. Sadly, what is being stated does happen.
However, if we want improvement, we do need to push for solutions in addition to pointing out problems.
To me, a lot is solved with size and numbers. When we are operating in the millions, layer 2 becomes more important because communities will be the central focus for most.
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I really love to work in numbers. I do think that hive has the capacity to attract numbers. It is quite possible in my area. I look forward to March 15th when the next marketing project would be kick-off. Hive is too good not to be liked by many.
I believe HW can fix their system so that those that leave are not scared away in error.
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I dont know enough about the internal workings of their system (like some others do) to forecast what is possible. However, it is worthy of discussion.
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"mouse turds."
Enough said. Lol
!BBH
@taskmaster4450! Your Content Is Awesome so I just sent 1 $BBH (Bitcoin Backed Hive) to your account on behalf of @bradleyarrow. (16/50)
I've been reading some things about this controversy and it seems that sometimes these things happen to teach us some lessons.
Teaching us lessons along with providing an opportunity to work on solutions.
For years we debated the bid bots and a change in the payout system eliminated them overnight.
Sometimes we not only learn, we take action and have results.
Could we do that here? That is what we have to focus upon.
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Bidbots didn't disappear, they became dlease, minnowlease, etc.
Tipu is still selling votes and raking profit from us all.
That bidbots left is as mythical as the mistreated downvoted and diluted whales, imo.
We just turn a blind eye to them because it is easier.
More importantly, the change in the payout system that "eliminated bidbots" actually emphasised the financial penalty on upvoting content that receives DVs.
Back in the day of 5-minute reverse auction followed by race to vote before others do, there was a theoretical option to discover great content, upvote early and receive great curation payout when it moons even if someone adjusts rewards afterwards.
Nowadays with 24-hour egalitarian window (and very few upvotes coming after it closes), you literally have to hide your upvotes away from any DVs. If account A keeps DVing account B for whatever reason, there are just two options - (1) a whale nukes account A real fast and makes them stop; OR (2) everyone else stops upvoting account B because they lose curation rewards.
Once everyone starts getting a flat rate on curation no matter what opinion they show (with both UVs and DVs) the problem disappears.
No need to watch the watchers. Whenever the police (individual or DHF-funded) abuses anyone, people will flock to the crime site (summoned by friends) and just upvote to adjust the adjustments.
Currently. anyone trying to be a good citizen like that just burns money.
Better to burn it than to let it go to the control freaks driving people away, imo.
Why not, if the money is yours, you can burn it as you please.
Not that I personally try to be a good citizen or respect someone for being one, anyway. The bolded sentence is supposed to address the issue of the people crying "There are bad people on Hive."
They don't understand the world they live in. There are bad people everywhere and Hive is in trouble not for having its fair share but for running a poorly designed upvote/downvote system.
I am not saying someone was malicious/idiot at the beginning. However, the chain of attempts at evolutionary changes that were supposed to fix whatever the biggest leak was at that moment - but always ended up creating a bigger problem - has been long enough.
The system needs a redesign from the scratch and good luck getting the votes of big shareholders for that. Forking out is more realistic.
I like the way things are going.
The only thing I would change is to make a 1000mv cap on voting in the pool.
I don't like getting reaped by those that got their hive cheap.
Knowing you had said that before, I assume you have been told that this achieves nothing because whales split their stakes between multiple accounts.
That conclusion is obviously wrong. After they split, there will be a public opinion storm about them being assholes and DHF funds a project called Splitwatchers to police this forbidden (sic) behavior.
Good job giving the control freaks a new toy. This proposal would greatly fit in the chain of fix-it-to-break-it-more Hive voting development history.
When those whales are discovered to be cheating the community through fraud, they will be easier to suppress.
A good anti-abuse community should have no problem riding herd on the outlaws.
Easiest prediction ever: we’ll be having these same discussions several years from now.
Based upon the historical context of your comment, I would not bet against the forecast you present.
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I think the problem is that they operate on guilty until proven innocent. They claim my content is AI generated, but it is clearly not.
Then when they are confronted publicly, they say that it's not downvoted because it is AI generated but just because I am "overrewarded". I find that to be very offputting as a blogger on other platforms who keeps trying to come here and add to my repertoire
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Well, most of your posts is also posted in the Leofinance community without having anything to do with Finance x)
It seems that you missed the memo that Leo has opened up to a broader audience. Read the @leofinance posts ;)
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Maybe link to their post and not their account.
💯 agree!
it would help if HWs could be run in a more decentalized way, but as you pointed out: nobody wants to do the dirty work... unless it is run more like a business. If HWs (or a new proposal) would start paying people to do the work and pay them like 20$/hour in HBD I think we would solve the problem. We would then of course first find trustworthy people and set up the system
It might have an impact, hard to know.
There is no easy answer to this and it is why we keep discussing it. Some might get tired but until there is a solution, or at least we are moving in the proper direction, we just have to keep exploring options.
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This is one of those topics where it's easy to get emotional, and will always be a bit divisive.
My own thoughts are that there is a definite role for Hivewatchers (or some equivalent, whatever the name), but that it should be allowed to evolve as Hive scales.
I think that the evolution should be to take some of the workload away, by making the communities the first line of defence when it comes to moderation. Yes, there will need to be some training and tools provided to the community moderators.
Hivewatchers then evolves to be a route for appeal, either because users feel a community moderator is acting from personal ire rather than technical violation, or because they really don't agree with the grounds of a moderation decision (again, for technical reasons, not just because they're annoyed if they got genuinely caught !) Hivewatchers would also be enabled to step in for posts placed purely on a personal blog as a way to avoid community moderation, or placed on an abandoned community where a moderator is no longer present.
This is just an idea; it would probably need some development work, but would hopefully spread the workload as Hive grows and help avoid the perception that moderators are basing decisions on emotion rather than technical rules.
Personally I believe this is the natural evolution. There will come a time (I have no idea when) where the communities will be the focus of most people. There are more tools available to the communities. They can create their own blacklists and ways to police people who try to spam their sites and bilk rewards.
At that point, Hive is policed by layer 2 moderation. It wont be perfect but it might remove some of the major issues.
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I love when Hive drama pops up every now and again. It's been a minute since the last drama.
Seriously though: There is corruption at the top of Hive. Well duh. Where ever money is involved there is going to be corruption. HW is sometimes draconian in their methods. Well again, duh. Any authority is going to tend to fall towards the extreme. And so on. I think the bottom line here is we need more involvement. I have read through a lot of the comments and arguments and yelling and I can see both sides. Maybe I should do a post to sort my thoughts out more. Hmmm
I cant claim that the basis of what people are saying is not valid. This is not a new issue and the claims were valid a few years ago.
Sadly, there does not appear to be an easy solution. Wish we could give a bullet point of this is how we are going to move ahead but it doesnt exist.
Voicing your views in a post might not be a bad idea.
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I've been thinking the same, I'm still catching up and barely remember who is who and whats going on, but its pretty interesting either way. It's nice that people can be so passionate about such things after so many years.
I do miss the bernie days
A massive issue (attacks) on CT. Hive tends to be a lot more mature, for the most part. Hopefully, we don't lose what we have... even though it's not perfect, it's still healthier than most.
I saw a lot of complaints about downvotes on Threads... unfortunately, that comes with the terrain. There is no perfect world...
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Yeah the stuff on other social media sites is horrific.
So there is that.
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I was not following this topic closely so I only knew some bits and pieces. Thanks for the overview. It's quite the dilemma indeed
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HI @taskmaster4450. As usual, your posts offer interesting insights.
As for the problem of the use of AI, I wrote an article of mine a little while ago and therefore I don't repeat myself, otherwise I risk being sanctioned for having republished the same material. ;)
All joking aside, I quite agree with @neoxian and against the criminalization of AI and its authors.
But I'm not writing for this. There is another part of your article that caught my attention.
What projects need help and people? I know the funding proposals but I don't know of any requests for help to help develop projects. Probably my fault.
I don't have much time, as you can also see from my blog, I don't even have time to write articles regularly: it takes time to write them well, especially for someone like me who doesn't have fluent English.
But I would be available, based on my skills, to help deserving projects.
So I ask you: how can I find projects that need help?
hive projects
sorry @strega.azure that site, which I knew, carries a list of projects. Not requests for help from the developers of those projects. Nowhere does it indicate that those projects are seeking help. Or am I wrong and am I the one who doesn't see it?
Here you can check active proposals
@strega.azure, I know that too, but in that case the developers ask to approve a financial grant from DHF. We do not ask for material or collaborative help from users.
I was asking @taskmaster4450 about projects whose developers need cooperation, since he talks about
If possible, I would gladly help
Haven seen the extent to which some go to abuse the system, Hivewatchers has got tough policing work on their hands, however, I get very sad and disappointed when some have to leave due to downvotes.
Can we have Hivewatchers create a situation where they consider the retention of new users while policing them? I think that can be established.
This is a tough case and like you mentioned as much as we castigate Hivewatchers doing without them without an alternative solution isn'tt going to be the best for Hive.
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I am beside downvotes when used againts plagiarism and spam, but not when used arbitrarily.
@acidyo wrote a post about downvotes.
Good reading.
https://peakd.com/downvotes/@acidyo/some-thoughts-on-downvotes-for-adjustment-of-rewards
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Frankly Hive has by far the most effective, balanced and economic method of content moderation on the internet.
Things are working really well IMHO.
Centralised social media spends tens of millions of dollars on content moderation and does a terrible, ineffective, biased, unfair and plain stupid job of it.
While there is always room for improvement, we should be careful not to damage the complex fairly balanced ecosystem with radical changes on this issue.
So, why haven't we grown? You have to grow to reach 5mill users and that's not happening, so your argument about numbers negating HW isn't quite realistic. What if HW and those with stakes going out of their way to be self-appointed police are the reason we aren't growing, what then?
Exactly so! I have a few Hive friends that believes onboarding people to Hive is a very strenous process, and believe solely that it's more of a struggle than a leisure. Most of whom have had a long fight with HW, some because they moved from Steemit, some because they have been penalized for crimes their onboardees commit, and others because they have faulted HW, apologized/pleaded, but refused to be humiliated enough to the satisfaction of HW.
For me, I am on the verge of leaving Hive, because I admitted with all honesty for engaging in AI-assisted writing, and my defense was tagged an emotional blackmail, and thus, I was blacklisted, and now, massive downvotes being rained on me.
They just believe that we shouldn't be defensive or take stands, and accept their terms as they come.
I think there are a few reasons:
The first starts with the onboarding process that is difficult to say the least.
Another is the fact that most of the internet is not about blogging and writing a grand essay. They prefer the senseless, inane, and foolish. YouTube got big on cat videos.
Hive is not easy and few are willing to put the time to learn the ins and outs.
Part of it is due to how we marketed it over the years: come here and get rich on two posts.
When epopel dont, they leave.
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Right, it's more about about marketing and networking than creating good content.
And, being marketed as a Social Network, when it really isn't doesn't help.
Because networking is hard enough and you must use Discord to do it, we direct people away from the platform to get the full experience. That's not a good layout. We need to keep them here when they get here.
Not necessarily senseless content and we don't really need more content creators, we need more content consumers. The problem is the content here is too personal for consumers to be interested. What YT got right were the DIY vids. If we had those here, consumers have a reason to come and ditch YT, because they'd like to, but there's no competition even close to them in that regard. So, maybe we are asking for and over rewarding senseless content here already, because vacation pics that tell me very little about the place are worthless to consumers. They want to learn about places they've never been in detail.
Our DIY community is more about bragging and earning than helping/teaching others to learn how to do the stuff themselves. We are not putting out content that's useful and that's a big problem. On top of that, when those who do try get attacked or ignored, of course they are going to leave.
Hive has way too many problems that the whales don't even want to address, so it isn't even close to ready for the mainstream and why it hasn't sparked the interest of the masses yet. I know that many users on social media know about Hive and enough to know they aren't interested in even giving it a try,
Hivewatchers and the whales that view their stakes as an investment, rather than a bonus and also attack people are a big part of the problem too. I've seen them attack users for simple ideological disagreements as well. That screams censorship to most. Rationalize it away as most here do all they want. It's not about the details, it's about how the average person views those types of actions and that it's a built in feature here, so the censorship resistant claim means little as well.
I could go on and on. If this topic isn't kept going by the whales, it'll die down again with no resolution and things will just go back to the way they were for 6 months with no improvements. It'll be the same whales getting over rewarded and newbies giving up left and right, while the active users number either flatlines or even dips.
https://leofinance.io/threads/@globetrottergcc/re-leothreads-sqn841ew
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If/when Hive ever gets to millions of active users we will see a lot more spam, but then posting may get more expensive in terms of RCs. It's going to be hard to police it anyway. Abuse is bound to happen and we may need to concentrate on specific aspects to have any hope of controlling it. Manual voting helps as people can at least decide if something deserves rewards.
My main concern is that HW can scare people away when they might have been good for Hive. Some will make a mistake, but not hang around to do their penance if found out.
The penance is also quite ridicolous!
That is one perspective, I'd invite you to the front page of youtube and think about how many of those videos would be unwanted on Hive due to content moderation tools. I just watched 50Min "Obama Trump and Biden Rank Smash Brothers Character" video on YT that has had a gazillion views over the last few days. Full AI-generated, but also probably 200hours of text work and editing. If you ever and I meant it EVER want to see high production Quality content on a Hive frontend - you have to level the fiend and let creators earn.
That's actually my issue with HW's, many top upvoters as well, but as far as voters go, it's their right to vote whatever they prefer with their stake. The issue with AI is that it is just a tool, the results of using it can be good or bad. Whether HW or anyone, if they can't differentiate between what's good and what's bad than they should withdraw from the conversation entirely and not determine all actors to be bad.
I am saying as a person who researches and writes long posts with sometimes 30 sources just for one topic.
I don't think it's an HW problem, it's a general misunderstanding. Hw are taking a beating because we're too slow to evolve.
That's why I am saying "or anyone" so we definitely agree.
Nice
EXACTLY!!!! The problem is that because they totally refused to use the tool while encouraging others not to, they do not realise just how hard it is to use. At the same time they will say that the content made with AI is emotionless and useless all the while trashing those who can use it to make it filled with emotion.
So which is it? Is it useless or useful? it can't be both.
Dude, don't get me started. I have been pissed at this whole approach for days now. They're already telling people what tools to use to improve their writing
So, instead of them just not interfering until they have the proper way to combat this, you should use the tools they want you to use and then run it into their preferred AI detection program so you'd know whether your post was written by an AI or not. Everyone supporting this shit should go and fuck themselves.
It's tiring...and yet the same people will write that the SEC is losing its way...I hope we can figure this out it's not helping what we are trying to build.
I don't have enough insight to the situation to have a strong opinion, but this got my attention:
I agree if one is completely generating a post from AI, this is probably fine, but I foresee a day when a lot of fiction will be AI generated and manually edited for polishing. In a situation like this, AI is certainly doing the heavy lifting, but forcing such acknowledgement seems kind of like making a song writer cite his guitar. AI is a tool with an indeterminate number of uses, but one thing that seems certain to me, is there will be a lot of cross pollination between humanity and AI before AI is advanced enough to manage on its own, so we should expect, and prepare for, those lines to be blurred, and at least to some degree, completely invisible.
The major news agencies already do that.
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This is inevitable. If HIVE cannot accept this reality then HIVE will not get anywhere.
Isn't this really a debate about deception vs. openness?
If someone uses AI to generate an article, they are not being open about "I used AI to create this content."
If you look at other platforms like Facebook, twitter, et. al, you don't get to pretend your post is genius because it has thousands of view: It is clearly notated "Promoted content."
Seems to me that the majority of those who are upset with Hivewatchers are actually upset because they don't get to mask the actual source of their content.
There is some truth to what you say. Sometimes the ones screaming the loudest are the ones who are unwilling to play along.
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This was actually the first time I had been made aware of the issues with Hivewatchers. I completely agree that blaming them for the issues Hive has, without providing any viable alternative or solution is empty at best and negligent at worst. It's unproductive to criticize something that is being community-funded, without providing any better option.
Perhaps incentivizing the work/role of Hivewatchers to more community members could work, but, what would stop those new watchers from abusing that power and authority? Perhaps a second layer of governance, specifically for the Watchers, that could even be handled via Polling on LeoThreads and Hive base layer.
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Second layer governance is certainly part of the solution. How it fits in is not quite clear at this moment.
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AI is a concern, but from my perspective is if you don't like the content don't vote or even down vote if you believe it's an abuse of the rewards pool. I have used AI for a couple post and followed it up to see if people noticed. I did not cite these posts as I generated them for the simple fact that they were my experiment, but would do so in the future. We need to learn how to work with the tech and incentive people to be more original. I think people struggle to want to be original we all the rewards still get handed out in mass to a relatively small amount of accounts on auto votes. No one person or system is perfect we ned to always been improving and trying to be inclusive and scalable to make this platform as successful as I think it can be.
Well your honesty is admirable.
However, if you are using AI and not citing it, then you run some risks.
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I fully back HW on their stance against AI generated posts and think 99/9% of those on Hive would agree. The few who think they can cheat their way through life without actually putting any effort in is not going to work on Hive and rightly so. I think each community should be policing their own communities as a starting point. Will they do this though as some communities have been upvoting plagiarism for ages.
I would think that most feel the same.
It could be a foolish outlook considering where tech is going but it makes sense now.
THe tech is going to be a challenge for many fields.
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I hope none of the people who got involved in producing your breakfast thought they could cheat their way through life using machines doing their work.
The moment you wrote this down should have been the moment you step away, look at yourself and laugh at your self-centrism.
It's a tough choice but there needs to be someone who does the work. I don't have any solution to this problem and that is also why I never tried to go against it. I don't agree with everything they do but I do appreciate that they are doing the dirty work.
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The sentiments created by the commenter are true. We are scaring people away from technology which is crazy that we don't see this. Hive itself is new technology and we should encourage those using Hive to use the technology.
We on Hive need to become better at detecting AI content. Chatgpt is a chatbot not a writing tool, it is more of a "life assistant" than a writing tool.
That said will people use a shovel to dig a hole? yes. Will they also abuse a weapon, spoon, structure for support, scraper and water bailer? Yes, they will. The use case of chatgpt is so large also.
This is a website that detects AI content
https://writer.com/ai-content-detector/
HW job would be significantly reduced if they found a way to use this and have people meet this requirement.
Another thing, we can look into rewarding video content more than written content, I think it is only right to do so because there is no video AI freely available that mimics actions of a text prompt...but it is coming and we should be prepared for that.
You've made some valid points here. But I wrote extensively on similar topic here. I even touched on AI detectors and how they are failing grossly to detect AI-Generated contents, even ChatGPTs AI writing detector finds it hard to detect its own content when there have been a little twist on it.
I even recommended something similar as you with respect to the way forward. It was a rant though, out of a pained heart, but I think you won't disagree with everything I shared.
I will check it out. The whole conversation is so one-sided right now I just published my post too.
https://leofinance.io/@ebingo/battle-against-ai-generated-original-content-hive-vs-chatgpt.
Hi @ebingo, are you sure of what you say?
No AI is able to verify if a text was written by an AI. There are so many mistakes and you can't rely on this to judge the work of others. There would be no justice. Let's just rate the content please.
I'll give you proof. This is the opinion of the site you suggested on a text I had ChatGPT process. 93% human generated content.
This is how I got the text from ChatGpt.
I see exactly what you are saying. But for every security threat, a security measure can be put in place. This is why HW will need to employe people withing every community to assess style of writing especially in communities were you style is important like Inkwell.
Relying on bogus security systems can do more damage than fear of the problem
Great article with a great topic. I too have had to do with Hive Watchers. my experience was all in all calm, the mistake was explained to me and I never made it again. what scares me a bit is that reading some posts from some users they were blocked immediately without having received any explanations. We need to figure out if this is true. If this is true, you must initially send warnings and reports, make sure they have been received, then check the user's behavior to verify that he has actually understood.
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To be honest, after reading a lot of posts on HIVE, there are too many original contents that got a lot of votes are adding no value. A lot of high reputation authors are just regurgitating the same thing every day and few days and every time they get significant amount of $$$ from whale accounts.
That is the real abuse of the reward pool in large amounts every day.
Some AI generated contents are more interesting and valuable and should be rewarded.
But I won’t judge. People who have high stake invested in HIVE Power should be allowed to reward whomever and however they want, and not be judged by Hivewatcher.
“Original contents” are not always better.
The best way to detect plagiarism and AI content is to program an API for detection into the Hive RSS feed. Then there’ll be an automatic alert system. Additionally, if people are aware that there’s an auto-detecting system, they’ll know that they can’t post “bad” content.
HIVE is in itself anti spam because you first need RC/HP to post. That shuts out lots of the advert spam you were mentioning on Youtube in one of the comments.
Isn't the problem with spam accounts getting upvotes in itself negated by the community who will, presumably, NOT upvote low quality content? Or for that matter, the community is more than capable themselves of downvoting spam.
If the aim of HIVE is to grow into a 5million strong social network, then inane stuff which could possibly go viral like "youtube cat videos" are part and parcel of the ecosystem. Who is to judge whether that is spam or not? If everyone gets a laugh out of it, they upvote, or else they'll just move on.
That being said, "Who watches the Watchmen?"
Sometime we forget, that is when people complain on Hive, that we are all early adopters of an innovative solution. Some things we try will work really well, others won't and will die away. Sometimes things last for a while and then they system outgrows them.
IMHO, the key is to keep the system distributed and let everyone have a voice in how the overall system is governed and policed. I think @taskmaster4450 you are right in that eventually this may become a second layer problem where communities police their own areas.
For the moment though, Hivewatchers are in my view providing a service we need. They discourage spammers and plagiarism but they will get it wrong some times. Its the easiest thing in life to throw stones at what others are doing. The hard thing is in life is to really make valued contribution that takes a lot of hard work and energy. Hopefully in time we will have a better more scalable solution(s). I also hope that the overall ecosystem eventually supports the better ways of doing things.
This is the power of a decentralised system that we all dream about. It will never satisfy everyone but hopefully over time the good ideas for the sake of the wider Hive community are the ones that good promoted into use.
That's a more sensible stance on #ai. As for HW, I like freedom but not at the expense of law and order. In this context, I see spamming and plagiarism as "lawless" and "disorderly".
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"You shout like that they put you in jail. Right away. No trial, no nothing.
You are stealing: right to jail.
You are playing music too loud: right to jail, right away.
Driving too fast: jail. Slow? Jail.
You are charging too high prices for sweaters? You right to jail.
You undercook fish? Believe it or not, jail.
You overcook chicken, also jail.
You make an appointment with the dentist and you don't show up? Believe it or not, jail, right away. We have the best patients in the world because of jail."
Parks and Recreation was right all along. Make a human-written article on Hive? Downvote. An AI-written essay? Also downvote. Some cute photos from your dog? Downvote. Post a meme? Believe it or not, downvote. Talk about politics? Downvote, right away.
😂
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Who's watching the Hive Watchers?
Very constructive position on the HW discussions I've read so far. For me, the demand from HW for AI contents to be sourced is not too much to do. Hive supports humanity in best of ways and we should uphold that.
I support your standpoint. HW is still very a necessary system in Hive. There is need to upscale the workforce and redefine their correctional policies in line with present realities.
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The guilty assumption before a chance to prove innocence is a deal breaker for me. I’d be glad to see HW’s end…
Then of course we see older accounts not punished for not adhering to what the rest of us have to adhere to.
Hivewatchers are of course in my view totally needed, but like anything who watches the watchers?
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I have have some to opposite conclusion. HW’s does more harm than good.
Hivewatchers should be fighting scammers abuses and big issues there needs to be a community canceled to deal with everything smaller.
In fact we need a specific council just to rehabilitate all of the people who have made small mistakes.
I've watchers is incredibly awesome doing what they do however we really don't need content snitches. The gestapo undercover individuals getting paid to make up allegations.
In fact I am one of those individuals that suffered under all of these different unfounded allegations and multiple times had to fight to prevent being blacklisted.
Then even more times I've had to fight for my friends to prevent them from being blacklisted.
AI is here to stay. It needs to be labeled as such and original human made content needs to be rewarded over the artificial intelligence content.
I think here soon anything made by human hands will drastically increase in value and worth.
Excellent post.
I got to thinking about AI content and how checks are performed - basically I decided to do a test to see if I can write some text that AI detectors would flag as being AI generated. The result - the detectors, instead of flagging the content 100% human generated, which it is, flagged it as AI generated with a certainty range of 95% to 100% on three popular systems used for testing AI content. I am considering posting my test on my blog (offchain).
so, hivewatchers/spaminator/guiltyparties has to be aware that if they flag something as AI generated and the writer can prove it isn't, they may get hit with a lawsuit.
Isn't the simplest solution the most correct in most cases?
Community owners most often know their users very well and they can understand whether this or that post is farming.
Maybe it's more reasonable that they would give the go-ahead to HW?