Is Hive-Engine a Blockchain?

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(Edited)

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Last night the API (Scotbot) that powers tribes went down, and it started a discussion that I think is important. I won't get into the Scotbot issue as it's not really the point of this post.

Yesterday, I asked in Engine discord if there is any update on Scotbot.

To which @aggroed responds,

To which I respond,

@cryptomancer steps in and states Hive Engine and Steem Engine are in fact blockchains.

@cryptomancer later goes on further explaining how Engine properties are in fact blockchains.

Let me present the official Oxford definition of a blockchain.

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This definition does not describe Hive Engine or Steem Engine at all. From here on out I will refer to Hive Engine and Steem Engine as Engine.

Let's look at some of the core benefits of a blockchain.

  • Decentralized
  • Distributed Ledger
  • Tamper proof
  • Verification without dependency of a third party
  • System is append only, data cannot be altered or deleted (Immutable)
  • Protected by cryptography
  • Transactions are public and verifiable

Without a doubt, Engine is not decentralized.

Transactions on Engine are not distributed across a network

Engine is not tamperproof, at any time anyone on the Engine team with appropriate access can modify balances and transactions.

All verification is dependent on one single third party entity (Engine)

While Engine may in fact as an append only mode, the possibility to edit/delete from the postgres/mongo database is technically possible and relatively easy to do with the correct access.

I don't know enough about the inner workings of Engine to determine if it is in fact protected by cryptography, I suspect it is not and is just stored in postgres but I don't have enough information to confirm or deny this.

Transactions for Engine are not public or verifiable without trusting a single third party.

Engine doesn't remotely meet the criteria, attributes, or benefits of a blockchain. A blockchain is built on the lack of trust, typically called a trustless system. Engine is the complete opposite, Engine is completely dependent on a benevolent overseer to be honest and reliable.

So I ask you, is Engine a blockchain?

Which leaves me with one question...

How much money is on Hive Engine right now?

Answer, quite a bit.

While I am not happy about certain things about Engine, I really love how many opportunities it brings to Hive. It just goes to show how much SMTs can bring to Hive when a token system native to the blockchain and protected by consensus is. Pair that with native smart contracts and we will have something no one else has, free three second transactions with the ability to create your own contracts and tokens. I honestly believe this is the only way Hive can become what it has always dreamed of being.


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As I understand it, each token on Hive-Engine has one distributer, which doesn't sound particularly decentralised to me.

And we trust that those distributers aren't going to go evil, crazy or get kidnapped and something go very wrong with the token supply all of a sudden as a result!

So we have faith in individuals, maybe it's a religion rather than a blockchain?

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Each token does in fact bring it's own form of centralization as well.

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Oh lordly, you'd concluded it was already that centralised before thinking about the tokens!

Long way to go!

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Is it decentralized? Not in the least.

Is is a blockchain? According to the definition you posted, it is not. However, this is not the first time we see that databases are called blockchain which brings up the question as stated here.

Is what IBM and JPM blockchain? They claim that it is but we have to wonder.

The question to me is can data be changed or is it immutable? If there is no transparency, how do we know about immutability?

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According to the definition you posted, it is not. However, this is not the first time we see that databases are called blockchain which brings up the question as stated here.

relevant good laugh

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"While I am not happy about certain things about Engine, I really love how many opportunities it brings to Hive. It just goes to show how much SMTs can bring to Hive when a token system native to the blockchain and protected by consensus is. Pair that with native smart contracts and we will have something no one else has, free three second transactions with the ability to create your own contracts and tokens. I honestly believe this is the only way Hive can become what it has always dreamed of being."

I have the exact same sentiment. I appreciate what Hive-Engine has allowed us to do thusfar and it has really shown the value that can be built here. That being said, Hive-Engine has shown that they either don't have the resources, knowledge or interest (probably a mix of the 3) to deliver on a truly decentralized and robust second layer. I hope to see @blocktrades and the other groups working on smart contract/second-layer solutions come out with something sooner than later.

The opportunity for Hive is massive. If what LEO has built can be replicated but on the first layer, I think Hive can actually thrive in the way people want it to.

To your points in this post about how fragile Hive-Engine is... this is exactly why I take daily snapshots of the exact balances of all LEO stakeholders. Hive-Engine could theoretically disappear at any moment and while the distribution systems/infrastructure would disappear alongside it, at least we would be able to have some downtime as a project and spin up a new LEO token elsewhere and airdrop the right amount of tokens back to everyone.

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(Edited)

The opportunity for Hive is massive. If what LEO has built can be replicated but on the first layer, I think Hive can actually thrive in the way people want it to.

I've been known to say many times

We need 100 Leos

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You've been known to be right on more than one occasion. I hope the Hiveiverse listens to you 🙏🏽

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I take daily snapshots of the exact balances of all LEO stakeholders.

That's good to know, I'm glad you always have the stakeholders in mind. It's funny you mentioned this, I was thinking about it all day.

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The opportunity for Hive is massive. If what LEO has built can be replicated but on the first layer, I think Hive can actually thrive in the way people want it to.

For all his game playing, Ned was spot on with that one.

Sadly he never brought it to life.

Fortunately, there is a lot of code for BT and others to go through. The question is whether it is worth very much.

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Question is whether first layer is an important enough metric for people to build tokenized communities on Hive. I think HE is good enough to bootstrap one, but LEO seems to be the only one who actually goes the extra mile. And I'm not really convinced that this will change with first layer tokens.

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This has been and still is my primary focus. The Speak network will live on Hive, I want it to be a Hive native token, IE running off RCs, or in some way bringing value back to the Hive ecosystem. I often use Leo as an example of what I mean by tokenized communities. That's originally what made me bullish on Steem and what I'm fighting tooth and nail for today.

It pleases me to know that not only Blocktrades but a handful of others that have the knowledge and resources (if they lack resources I've offered finical help to those capable) and progress is being made. Know that the IPFS backend for the Speak network is practically finished at the foundation, it's now time to create a tokenized system to empower this storage system. So now it's that time, it'll be built one way or another and it will be decentralized or we simply can't use it. I'm stubborn when I think I'm right, and I think Hive will go to another level once these tools are made available for people to tokenized their communities in both a decentralized and economically viable way. I want people to spin up communities + tokens for very cheap and rely on the fact they'll need RC's to back those tokens. it was the original SMT vision and what will bring a ton of organic demand for RCs, thus leading to bullish demand for Hive.

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It just goes to show how much SMTs can bring to Hive when a token system native to the blockchain and protected by consensus is. Pair that with native smart contracts and we will have something no one else has, free three second transactions with the ability to create your own contracts and tokens.

Another 4 years away?

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I'm still baffled that nobody has created a public bet about which will be delivered first:

  1. SMTs
  2. ETH2

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(Edited)

3- Clean fusion energy

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4-Quantum Computing

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5-Colonising Mars

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6-nano robots

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(Edited)

Mars Colonisation Looking much closer than many think. SpaceX's most recent test of Starship was a huge success. The huge explosion right at the last second not withstanding.

Musk could have it going unmanned to Mars within 4 years and manned with 8 years.

Huge amount of colonisation work done by Mars Society and others.

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please Smts :D i like the horse i sit on

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I didn't like the idea of anyone modifying my data but I also quite like engine it has some shortcoming and this needs to be fixed

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My sentiments lay with Khal's. Whilst I don't think hive-engine is a blockchain, it surely has shown us what someone can do with Hive when they have the motivation to do so.

I'm a Hive purist, you know I am, all we need is someone interesting to see the value in this place and BOOM :)

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I'm a Hive purist, you know I am, all we need is someone interesting to see the value in this place and BOOM :)

I think we have the innovators, creators, and know how to deliver that interesting with what is here now.

What is missing is the tools for the people who are looking to do that to achieve their end.

Hopefully that will be corrected soon.

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If I had the tools I'd make something brand new again - but I don't know how to code. So that sucks lol

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It's mostly a game of resources. I have a broad roadmap laid out that will lay out the architecture over ~1 years time. Much of this stuff is inventing architecture that we shouldn't have to invent though. If Hive wants to be the hub of community tokenization, then the infrastructure should exist on Hive

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@edicted... From the LIONs mouth!

Hive won't 10x like you say just because. Development is obviously a vital necessity. Here's a live in the flesh builder making the exact same claim.

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Thank you for this post.
I have been screaming this same thing over and over and felt like no one else understood what i was saying.

Thank you so much for raising the awareness of this.

How much "money" has been spent on Dcity with people thinking it is safe on-chain?

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All the transactions are on chain and theoretically a new server like Scotbot or a network of bots like it could be spun up and the transactions could be replayed to arrive at the correct state.

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The "transactions" (custom json) on chain are like deposit slips at a bank. You can write you are depositing $10,000,000 but it doesn't mean jack if you don't have the balance.

In other words, you cannot trust any of the custom jsons on chain unless you play from block 0 and maintain a balance to validate each and every one for every transaction.

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In other words, you cannot trust any of the custom jsons on chain unless you play from block 0 and maintain a balance to validate each and every one for every transaction.

That's exactly what I wrote.

I wrote:

could be replayed to arrive at the correct state.

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Yes, I just wanted to clarify to those reading the thread that the custom jsons in themselves are useless, this is important as the way it is described by Engine team suggests otherwise.

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(Edited)

If there were several instances of Scotbots owned by several different people that all had to come to an agreement on the next transaction generated by Scotbot then I wonder how much would that slow down the thing. Scotbot seems quite slow. If LeoFinance begin or Splinterlands or some other app begins to attract large numbers of users, then the lack of capacity could be a problem.

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There is one scotbot for all tribes and it watches both Steem & Hive. It's also not well optimized from what I have seen.

Splinterlands does not depend on Scotbot, only tribes.

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There is one scotbot for all tribes

That's the problem.

and it watches both Steem & Hive.

Yes.

It's also not well optimized from what I have seen.

Splinterlands does not depend on Scotbot, only tribes.

Ok. But the Tribes use Scotbot to calculate rewards, powering up and powering down and stuff like that. Does Scotbot have any contracts available that any of the games make use of at this point?

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I don’t believe so

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In fact, Yabapmat clarified in another post that Scotbot only does the reward calculation and such for the tribes. That it's a separate service from Hive Engine. It's bad performance is apparently due to the fact that it's just a minimum viable product put out "to keep Appics on Steem" as Matt put it.

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It is a blockchain, in a certain sense. But for the most important sense, it is not.

Compare this to something like Voice, which is (presumably) on a blockchain as well, but that blockchain is hidden and inaccessible to the public, from what I can tell.

If Engine were a private database with a public API, there would be almost no difference in how it operates, apart from the ability to query the database without needing permission.

Who runs a copy full of the Engine databases for doing queries? Very few of us. But it's an option.

Private exchanges usually run their databases without allowing public access to that database. So in that particular sense, Engine is a single step in the right direction.

Engine is really just an open database in the style of a blockchain. It can possibly move in the direction of a true blockchain. So that's nice.

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@themarkymark is there any reason the steem smts code will not use ( or parts of it)?

I know it's not fully tested, but it's close to ready right? I'm not sure the sidechain discussion is something like "reinvent the wheel" or not.

As far I know there are not good ruleset of what they should cost too, but with some work, it can be something to not?

IMO we don't need a perfect system, we need a working system. Would really appreciate your opinion on it

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@themarkymark is there any reason the steem smts code will not use ( or parts of it)?

This has been brought up, there are certain flaws in the code that would require changing. I don't know them specifically as I wasn't part of the discussion but it has been reviewed and there are various options,

  • release SMT and hope for the best
  • rewrite some of SMT code to fix these issues
  • build SMT from scratch with proper business rules
  • build a side chain dedicated to tokens and/or smart contracts that is more native to Hive

I believe one of these options will be chosen and focused on when Hivemind optimization is finished.

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Thank you, Marky.

Is it possible to run it on something like Hive engine (option 4) for tests and include it, if its works on mainchain?

Because I think users of the tech find in most cases more bugs or something that can be done better as developers.

No idea about how much work it would be :)

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Well.. I mean technically it's a centralized string of javascript virtual machines running code encoded in base58. As far as I know it takes zero consideration of other HE nodes running so it's not technically a distributed ledger meaning it's not a true blockchain. It's a sidechain by definition of not actually being decentralized.

I do business with a number of communities that use it as their staple.. However the tokens on there are nothing more than JSON at the end of the day.. JSON running on a centralized database that we call Hive-Engine.

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Strange post 🤔 HEngine can be rebuilt at any time by anyone with a replay of the data in HIVE, anyone can have their own Hengine node and point to it, you have all the open source code on github...

For sure it's not perfect and it need to be seen as in progress state of a blockchain creation because there is still work to be done.

For my part, I am a bit sad that the implementation of a witness validation system (in which I had participated) stopped last year when JS arrived and we migrated to HIVE.

Where I come from, we call this "shooting at the ambulance", which means shooting at an easy target, and in this case I can do the same thing with our blockchain 🤣

  • Did the DPOS protect us from the JS hostile takeover? Nope
  • Can a person change an account balance? Yep => JS

I stop here because it was only for the example to conclude that for my part Hive is also in a in progress state so I don't see the point of shooting it when many talented people are working on it to make it better and I prefer a way where something constructive can come out of it 😉


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If someone writes a utxo based Monero blockchain with blogging and rewards like Steem, I'm in!

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Proof of concept is still valuable. Some hard lessons were learned along the way. Some failures. People learn from this; come out better prepared for the big show, if it's ever ready.

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빡큐다 이 썩고 개새야~!!!

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(Edited)

So I feel that I have to respond here because a lot of what you're saying is simply factually inaccurate and very misleading. I have no interest in defending Engine and there are many things that could be done better, but I do think it's important that people understand what is actually going on.

Transactions on Engine are not distributed across a network

This is incorrect, Engine transactions are Hive blockchain transactions, so they are very much distributed across a network.

Engine is not tamperproof, at any time anyone on the Engine team with appropriate access can modify balances and transactions.

This is also incorrect. You're confusing tampering with a node with tampering with the system as a whole. I can run my own Hive node and modify balances and transactions all I want, but that doesn't mean it's correct based on the protocol of the system. Engine is no different. Sure the Engine team can modify things on their node, but others can validate the info on their node to see if they are reporting correct information or not just like with any other blockchain platform. More on this later.

All verification is dependent on one single third party entity (Engine)

False. The code is all open source for the Engine platform and anyone can independently verify all of the data.

While Engine may in fact as an append only mode, the possibility to edit/delete from the postgres/mongo database is technically possible and relatively easy to do with the correct access.

This is incorrect for the same reason as the "tamperproof" claim above.

I don't know enough about the inner workings of Engine to determine if it is in fact protected by cryptography, I suspect it is not and is just stored in postgres but I don't have enough information to confirm or deny this.

What is meant by "protected by cryptography" is that the transactions are cryptographically signed using a public/private key pair, which Engine transactions most certainly are as a result of being transactions on the Hive blockchain.


Everything @cryptomancer said in his quoted comment is correct and accurate. If I were part of the Hive Engine team, I would encourage third parties to run their own Hive Engine nodes and their own copies of the hive-engine.com website that point to them (or just to allow hive-engine.com to point to other nodes just like peakd.com and other Hive apps can).

If more people were running nodes, then if the Engine team wanted to change the code then they would need the consensus of everyone running Hive Engine nodes to adopt the same changes, or else their node would fork off from the others, at which point it will be up to the users to decide which fork they want to use. This is exactly the same as most any other blockchain platform, and is only not apparent in this case because no one else is running a node - a problem that should be relatively easy to fix, IMO.

I think that relatively simple thing would make it much more clear that Hive Engine most definitely is a blockchain. It doesn't mean it's necessarily a good one, or one that projects might want to use - that's up to each person or project to decide, but just because you may not like it or the people behind it doesn't mean that it's not a blockchain.


Pair that with native smart contracts and we will have something no one else has, free three second transactions with the ability to create your own contracts and tokens.

Also, what?? Numerous other blockchains have this nowadays - EOS, WAX, TRON, and many others including Ethereum sidechains which seem be popping up left and right. Hive simply cannot compete in the generic smart contract platform arena.

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I'd like to run a Hive-Engine node.
I'm already running a witness node using HIAB.
Where can I find instructions?

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https://github.com/hive-engine/steemsmartcontracts/tree/hive-engine (The current code that is live on Hive-Engine) you can simple start it and it will replay all the transactions)

https://github.com/hive-engine/steemsmartcontracts-wiki (A pretty good guide on working with ssc and running a node)

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Thanks. Why is it still called "steemsmartcontracts"? That is super confusing.

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yeah it indeed is! not sure why

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It is used by both Steem & Hive (there is still Steem Engine and tribes running), and has not been update to clean out the Steem branding.

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Last I heard, there's a difference between native tokens and the current ERC20, etc. SMTs seem to be that native token part.

At least, that’s what I got from reading this.

https://iohk.io/en/research/library/papers/native-custom-tokens-in-the-extended-utxo-model/

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(Edited)

This is incorrect, Engine transactions are Hive blockchain transactions, so they are very much distributed across a network.

They are custom json transactions, I can create a custom json transaction right now transferring 10,000,000 Leo to my account to another account, but that custom json is meaningless if there isn't a balance. So looking at the chain, all you see is "deposit slips" that can be filled out any way someone wants but are not an guaranteed representation of value. To be 100% sure of a transaction, you need to query a Hive Engine RPC node.

Can you tell me which one of these transactions are real, one of them is forged.

On chain, there is absolutely no difference between the two.

This is also incorrect. You're confusing tampering with a node with tampering with the system as a whole. I can run my own Hive node and modify balances and transactions all I want, but that doesn't mean it's correct based on the protocol of the system. Engine is no different. Sure the Engine team can modify things on their node, but others can validate the info on their node to see if they are reporting correct information or not just like with any other blockchain platform. More on this later.

No one does. 99% query only Engine's node. The only way to protect from this is to run your own node or hope someone else does and identifies it.

What is meant by "protected by cryptography" is that the transactions are cryptographically signed using a public/private key pair, which Engine transactions most certainly are as a result of being transactions on the Hive blockchain.

Again back to my first response, the public/private keys is to issue a untrusted custom json transaction, that's it. As you can see above, that's easy to forge, so third parties cannot confirm it without validating the transaction from a node they trust.

Also, what?? Numerous other blockchains have this nowadays - EOS, WAX, TRON, and many others including Ethereum sidechains which seem be popping up left and right. Hive simply cannot compete in the generic smart contract platform arena.

I kind of agree here, but I can't see any other way for Hive to be relevant enough that people want to use it for large projects. We have had the same functionality for 4 years and no large project has come to take advantage of that. The thing is we have a lot of people actually using Hive on a daily basis for something other than gambling apps. We would have a lot more potential if Hive was dumbed down from being a blogging platform and that logic put into a smart contract on chain potentially beside competing social media application contracts like Leo.

As the developer behind Splinterlands, you got to admit using custom jsons for every thing is wonky. Especially using them for financial transactions (aka transfering HE tokens).

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I have seen "fake" custom_json transactions as well.

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(Edited)

You're still confusing a lot of things here. The only real issue you have identified with Hive Engine is that no one else runs nodes. This is definitely a major issue, but it isn't a problem with the system itself.

First of all, you claimed that the transactions were not distributed across a network. I explained that they were, and then you countered with the fact that invalid custom_json transactions can be published to the Hive blockchain which has nothing to do with the transactions being distributed across a network, which they clearly are.

To be 100% sure of a transaction, you need to query a Hive Engine RPC node.

This is the case with any blockchain platform I am aware of. To confirm a transaction you need to run the node software and query it local database, or query the node of a trusted 3rd party.

On chain, there is absolutely no difference between the two.

On the Hive blockchain there is no difference between the two. Again, you're confusing things here. On the Hive Engine blockchain there would be a difference which can be independently verified. The fact that Hive Engine uses transactions published on a separate blockchain to populate its own blockchain is definitely confusing and different than most other platforms, but that doesn't mean that it's not a blockchain or doesn't have the same properties as you are claiming.

On the contrary, it's actually a very clever solution to be able to utilize already built features of the Hive blockchain to more easily create a new blockchain with additional features.

Can you tell me which one of these transactions are real, one of them is forged.

First of all, both of the transactions are "real". One of them is just invalid based on the rules of the Hive Engine protocol, and it is very easy to tell which.

Transaction 40ca892010c880dd6bb10777934df6a3b732a116 is valid whereas Transaction 72301f9df4c896da648f2f4729308ef488dc806b is invalid because you didn't have enough tokens in your account balance at the time.

I could "forge" a Hive transaction too, but anyone can query a Hive blockchain node to see that it is invalid.

No one does. 99% query only Engine's node. The only way to protect from this is to run your own node or hope someone else does and identifies it.

Yes, this is the problem. But the key is that you can run your own node and verify everything. The fact that people don't care enough to do that is a different issue. Also, I would venture to guess that somewhere around 99% of Ethereum users and applications only query Infura's node.

the public/private keys is to issue a untrusted custom json transaction, that's it.

That is correct, and again is how all blockchain platforms work that I am aware of. "protected by cryptography" does not mean that the content of the message is valid based on the blockchain's protocol. It means simply that you can verify that the message was sent by someone who has access to the associated private key, which is certainly the case for all Hive Engine transactions.

I can't see any other way for Hive to be relevant enough that people want to use it for large projects.

In my opinion the best path for Hive would be to focus on the niche of tokenized communities. I've looked at and researched a LOT about successful startups, and often the best ones with the best chances of success are ones that focus on one particular thing and work to be the absolute best at it. Even many of the big companies that now do everything started out this way, including Amazon, Google, etc.

As the developer behind Splinterlands, you got to admit using custom jsons for every thing is wonky.

Not at all. The purpose of the custom_json transactions is to provide immutable, cryptographically-signed, ordered transactions, and custom_json transactions on the Hive blockchain provide all of these things exactly as we need them. There's absolutely nothing "wonky" about it.

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(Edited)

@yabapmatt,
Thanks for explaining the every bit of detail, otherwise thing might go complex, then drama, then a dramatic flag war. This is how everything happened previously top of Steem chain.
I dont care HE decentralized or centralized. If token owners could run their own HE nodes it will move into the decentralization.
Anyway when core change so frequently how it's possible to keep running dapps top of HE or whatever. That's the real issue we all wanna focus on.
$tangent (I hope I didn't call it 3 times today)

Cheers~

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On the Hive blockchain there is no difference between the two. Again, you're confusing things here. On the Hive Engine blockchain there would be a difference which can be independently verified. The fact that Hive Engine uses transactions published on a separate blockchain to populate its own blockchain is definitely confusing and different than most other platforms, but that doesn't mean that it's not a blockchain or doesn't have the same properties as you are claiming.

This is getting very confusing. Hive-Engine has a blockchain of its own that is not Hive??? Is the existence of this separate blockchain documented somewhere?

F***, Hive very much needs user-defined native tokens. It sounds like an effin' mess right now!

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I like hive engine really the only reason remaining for me to be here. However, we've opted to be a multi chain project i just think its too dangerous to have our entire system run on just hive engine. So its a good complimentary product but our investors feel alot better on us being multi chain.

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A side chain is always a bad idea.

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Well i'm not sure what you mean by that. Doesn't leofinance do the wrapped leo thing and it's on ethereum? So the value of say a project like leofinance can be held in ethereum but it's run on hive. If i understand this correctly hive-engine is not rooted in the hive blockchain is it? So although i applaud the efforts of the hive and steem-engine team. I'm glad they took some intiative got something done with these second layer solutions. Seeing that had they not we'd not be here. Looks like smt's we got an unrealized promise every month till the point they just stopped talking about it at all.

However if it's a blockchain who's running the nodes? How many are there? If you become a multi million dollar product you wanna be leaving all to chance. So what i'm saying is that as an investor and being part of a project. I feel better if like if something went wrong with hive or steem engine. It doesn't mean the end for us. It may mean the end for you all. Is what i mean to say and thanks for your comment.

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Engine lacks the most important ingredient to be considered a blockchain...a peer to peer network that validates each transaction. There is no incentive to run a node and there is no consensus algorithm to determine who writes the next block on the "sidechain".

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That really is one of the key defining functions of a "blockchain".

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Because @jpbliberty's SUFB token (which gives a share of the payout from the Class Action lawsuit against Facebook & Google's crypto ad ban) is on Hive-Engine, I'm very interested in running my own Hive-Engine node connecting to my own copy of the blockchain on my Hive Witness node.

Do I need to have my own API node to do this?
Where can I find proper instructions to setting up a Hive Engine node?

Its not enough to say that people could run their own Hive-Engine node.

There needs to be sufficiently detailed instructions as to how to do it.

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I have read the post and if not all the comments. You guys have taken me down the rabbit hole. Am confused as fuck.

Can someone guide me out of this shit fuck?

So yeah. Blockchain.

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Lol consider it like the story of the Bible.

Long ago it was even forbidden to know how to read unless a person was of certain rank/creed/status.

So back then: Bible not a Blockchain.

Fast forward to now... Many versions exist. Everyone in the world that can read can store that information in their head or even copy it and redistribute it.

So now: Bible like a Blockchain.

Hive Engine is not the people's Bible.
Under the control of a single entity.

If you're still confused..
Blame Jesus!
awkwardmomentsbible_hateeveryone.jpg

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Engine is not tamperproof, at any time anyone on the Engine team with appropriate access can modify balances and transactions.

So one can run away with all that money a fine day if he wants ?

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It isn't that simple, but there are areas of risk as there is not a large group of decentralized entities distributing the transactions.

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All that money in there, that’s a risk too! If anything happens HIVE will damp! Sounds very risky! Yeah hive engine good prototype, now get smt done!

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Hive engine is an excel sheet with some formulas. calling it a blockchain is a little far fetched

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Personally speaking, no. Hive-Engine is not a blockchain, nor is it decentralized.

The value it brings to the chain is great, though. We all use it daily in some way, shape or form, from tribes to games to NFT's. So in that sense I would like it to become decentralized and a blockchain.

One thing yabapmatt, aggy and crew may not understand. They can call it decentralized and a blockchain all they want, and it can even be these things. But if the common user doesn't think it's those things then functionally it's not those things to that person.

I do have to ask though, witnesses get paid to run nodes, Bitcoin miners get paid to mine blocks. What would someone running a Hive-Engine node get as compensation for computing power?

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Please define decentralization and centralization because everything in this world seems to me are centrally controlled by whomever has the most money? And it matters not( MOOT... Surpreme courts word) what the people say!

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Transactions on Engine are not distributed across a network... Engine is not tamperproof.

Well, I see it differently. The transactions on Engine are directly the custom_jsons, where certain rules (public rules) are applied. And these jsons are distributed and cryptographically signed on Hive (or Steem).

Without a doubt, Engine is not decentralized.

Yes, I agree with you. This is the main issue of Engine. One could think that it is decentralized because it is just picking some transactions from the Hive blockchain (which is decentralized). This is true. However, it is not decentralized in terms of the number of nodes running Engine. And the reason for that is because only one user has the incentive to run a node: The creators of Engine (fees for creating smart contracts, tokens, etc). Apart of that there are no incentives to run a node. I'm mean, this is their business model, which is ok, but it was not designed to be decentralized.

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Well, I see it differently. The transactions on Engine are directly the custom_jsons, where certain rules (public rules) are applied. And these jsons are distributed and cryptographically signed on Hive (or Steem).

No they are not, those are just deposit slips (an unofficial unauthorative request for a transaction), the transaction actually happens behind the scenes on the "side chain" in a mongo db. Anyone can make a custom json with any number of tokens regardless of balance.

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This is the reason I added: "where certain rules (public rules) are applied".
Sure, you can create wherever custom_json you want with any token regardless of the balance, and this will be a valid transaction on Hive. However, certain rules apply on Engine, and they are public rules, then that json will be rejected there.
This transaction is not broadcasted because there is no reason to do that, it is already on Hive.

In any case, I agree with you that Engine can not be considered a blockchain because there is only one node running it, there are no incentives to run more nodes, then it is centralized.

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In any case, I agree with you that Engine can not be considered a blockchain because there is only one node running it, there are no incentives to run more nodes, then it is centralized.

There are no incentives to nodes on Hive either, at least RPC nodes (which is what Engine nodes are). There are incentives to run a witness node, but full nodes are much more expensive and difficult to maintain but there is zero incentive. Every full node on Hive is a blessing.

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Yes, you are right, this is a problem. And in many cryptos, this is an issue as well.
The lower RPC nodes, the greater the risk, the less trust in the network because there are few providers to verify the data (unless you run a full node yourself).

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Wow a lot of engagement.

Engine is not a blockchain, its something new they created that uses the hive blockchain to register all actions.

I bet on SMTs to come out at one point, then token swap lassecash to a SMT. So get your lassecash while its cheap as now!!

We are working on airdop 2, which basically is 1 million airdropped to around 1900 accounts that holds from 1000 lassecash power to 0.00000001 lassecash power.

Earth is light ! :)...

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You're right. It's all a kind of centralized system built-on-top of Hive. None of the contract is enforced by the consensus rules because it is impossible to implement them on Hive. Hive is designed to be somewhat narrow in focus.

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It's a good thing I stumbled across this, we were about to launch our game using Hive Engine. This spared us from alot of headaches in the future. Many thanks for this @themarkymark

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