1917 WWI Knuckle Duster Trench Knife ~ Another One of My Thrift Store Finds
Let Us Again Take A Step Back In Time
To The Age Of WWI Trench Warfare
War is not a pretty, delightful thing. It comes with a lot of heartache, pain, suffering and sacrifice. Both good and bad things are spawned by the act of war.
But, that's NOT what I am here to write about today. Rather, I would like to share a piece of war history with you. A piece of history I found in my past WEEKEND EXPEDITIONS to thrift stores galore!
I figured The Weekend Community would be a great place to post this, since it was found on a Saturday Morning, many a moon ago. ALSO.. @galenkp aka G-Dog, will get a kick out of it (I think)
Again I Am Sorting Through "Stuff" ..
As most of you may be aware, I had been doing a little house keeping as far as collectables goes. I've been rooting around in the stash of junk I have collected over the years, and primarily from a "I have to buy that crap" stage I went through. I still, on occasion, keep my eyes peal for deals, but not nearly as often do I react to them by pulling out my wallet.
Today's post is some more of the same.. although this time, I am not so ready to part with my item. On display for you today, I have a 1917 WWI Knuckleduster Trench Knife.
This type of trench knife, often called a knuckle duster, is also referred to as model 1917 or M17. A company called Landers, Frary and Clark [LF&C] produced this knife for the U.S. armed services. Even though they call it a knife I believe it’s more of a blunt blade, due to the fact it does not have any sharp edges, and you have to use it in a stabbing like motion. This knife was built for very close combat types of situations.
From what I read, it was not that popular and eventually became obsolete and replaced with a slew of other weapons developed around this time, the era of trench warfare.
The blade, roughly 10 inches long or 26 cm, is triangular in nature. It is fatter at the base and becomes pointed toward the end.
The blade is attached to a wooden handle that is carved to fit a soldiers grip.
There is also a curved piece of metal, that surrounds the knuckles. This piece of metal has 6 pyramid like protrusions (pressed into the steel) along its edge. These little pyramid like pop-outs would protect the knuckles and be used in close combat as a means of inflicting bodily damage through the act of punching.
What Kind Of Condition Is My Knife In? ..
The one I own, isn’t in too bad of shape. I say this even though one can clearly see noticeable wear. There are dents, some rust, pitting, a crack in the wood, etc. All of this I can forgive, being that it may have been in service at some point, and for the sole fact that it is over 100 years old now.
The Text - U.S. ~ LF&C ~ 1917 .. Is still visible
There Are Still A Few Thing's I Would Like To Know ..
I sort of alluded to the fact that I am not ready to part with this piece of history. I am not quite ready for a few reasons. The first one is that I have NO CLUE what value to put on it, and where it would be best to list it for sale. If I find a group or person who knows his WWI stuff, I would think they could give me a rough estimate and even point me in the direction of a buyer.
Secondly, I really want to get it looked at to make sure it's legit (original). There are companies out there today that make really impressive replicas of these trench knives, which are used as collectors pieces and for reenactments. I want to make certain this one is the real thing. Given it's condition, leads me to believe it's legit, but assuming is not a wise choice.
Third thing I ponder is whether or not to buy the scabbard (holster or sheath) for it. The knife had a scabbard when they were issued, but when I found this piece in a thrift store (of all places), it did not have one. I found a few original scabbards, which I could purchase to accompany my piece. Would that raise it's value? And would I be able to recoup the cost of the additional purchase? Both good questions.
Ebay has a few scabbards for this knife, listed on their site
"US WW1 Jewell 1918 Scabbard Sheath for Trench Fighting Knife"
Photo 1 Source Ebay <~> Photo 2 Source - Ebay
Holy crap they are asking a lot!! $450 USD!!!
There are several watchers for both listings, making me consider that this is a normal problem for people who own these knives (not having the accompanying scabbard). Maybe that is why the prices are so steep.. lots of knives and no scabbards.
What To Do? What To Do? ..
I suppose that a little more research won’t hurt. There’s no hurry for me to perform the research, the due diligence that this investigation requires. I don’t own a lot of World War I or World War II artifacts, I may be limited on just a few. I’d have to think about that for a second. That should tell you how many war artifacts I own from that era. Lol. That may be one of the reasons behind why I would eventually want to part with it. I just don’t collect it in that way. I do have several other knives but nothing quite like this one.
Somebody out there may be searching .. for something like this to add to their fast collection of world war one items. Eventually we may meet up, talk about this knife and how I stumbled across it, about how they’ve been looking for quite a while for one of these, and finally agree on a price. I’m not ruling that scenario out totally. I like to be well informed before I make decisions on selling things I have little to no knowledge on. This type of thing has bitten me in the past and I don’t like to make the same mistakes twice, if you know what I’m talking about.
So what do you think of this knuckleduster?
Does anyone out there know anything about this knife? Maybe they have a scabbard they’re willing to part with that goes with this knife? Less than $450 maybe?? LOL. Anyhow if you know anything about this 1917 knuckle duster trench knife, I would be happy to hear from you.
When and IF I ever do decide to sell this, I am thinking the funds will make for some good investing fiat.. Silver?? .. We'll see!
“I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.”
― Albert Einstein
I thought it was appropriate to include this photo of Pepper (RIP), since the quote I thought of was one involving sticks. He would always find one and bring it to me to throw.
Also I can't resist to share one of my pieces of art too. Since the quote is an Albert Einstein quote, my blind contour drawing appropriately named 'Einstein' will fit here perfectly!
Thank you for swinging by my blog and checking out the post. Have a great day!
All words, pictures and art pieces are the sole property of B D Miller Gallery, unless otherwise noted and credited, and are not to be reproduced or copied without the prior written consent of B D Miller Gallery.
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Thanks 😊
I was a huge knife collector amongst other things in my life. I’ve had a few of those. In the shape that ones in and without the scabbard you’d be lucky to get $40-$50. I had one given to me by my fathers uncle it had the scabbard. I sold that about 20 years ago for around $500. But that one was in phenomenal condition. The knives are fairly common considering how old they are. The scabbards are much harder to find especially in good condition. I was told by several veterans that they were kept out of the scabbard on purpose in case of need. eBay won’t allow you to sell them. Your best bet is to find a collector. I sold my entire collection of knives and swords over a decade ago so i don’t have contacts anymore. Mine was also easy because i broke them all up into categories. That’s the only way I could do it. I had over 800 knives and 60 swords. I only have 6 knives and two swords now. I could go on for a while on knives. I’ve owned so many custom handmade knives, butterfly knives were my specialty. I could throw any knife and make it stick within 3 throws. If you have any questions DM me on discord
Oh wow.. THANKS!!! I appreciate the info. Well one ounce of silver isn't bad I suppose. Lol. I figured that maybe there were a ton of these out there and no scabbards to be had. You had quite the collection. That's the thing about collecting anything, sometimes there's a good time to part with them.
Again, thanks so much for the info @silverd510 😁
Anytime. Those were pretty indestructible so the handle is the only thing that people look at. Yeah well, it’s hard to store all your collections when you have kids. So i sold off all my knives, all my sports cards and just stayed with coins.
Oh those stinkin kids! lol. Everything has it's time, and I have grown to learn that what I collect and am interested in, those I would pass it along to, may not be. Probably a big possibility they could care less about it. Better you sell it when the fun and excitement is over, because you would be the one who knows the most about those items and their worth. 😊
With the amount of knives I had there was really no purpose for that many. So I picked a few that I wasn’t parting with and sold the rest.
Why won't ebay allow them to be listed there? Forgive my ignorance 😉
You can’t sell what they consider weapons. That classifies as a weapon.
I have an old bayonet attachment looks awfully similar somewhere. Honestly, thing looks more like an ice pick that the mafia would use to 'iced' someone with LOL! Before stilettos became popular. Killer piece for a collection man.
hahaha.. Ice Pick.. Mafia! I am from NJ!! lol. Very similar to a bayonet style spike. That's an excellent comparison. Thanks for swinging bye @enginewitty 😁
If this item doesn't clearly demonstrate the brutality of trench warfare nothing will. It's an up close and personal weapon that would have been deployed with desperation only the kill or be killed mentality can bring to a human. Close quarters combat is often fought with whatever comes to hand but here we have a purpose-made weapon designed to do great damage quickly allowing one to move on to the next. It would have been very effective once one had dropped into an enemy trench and the confined conditions found there. Brutal. I wonder about the man/men who wielded this weapon and what happened to them.
In the Knives community is a post I did on my WW1 bayonet and my Lee Enfield SMLE, a similarly brutal combination. You might have seen it.
This is a great post that @andrastia may also be interested in. Thanks for sharing this piece of history.
I did not see the post, but will search for it and check it out! An Enfield? Wow.. There's a piece of history. What year was yours manufactured in? Oh wait.. I am sure that is in the post and will have answered my own questions. Either way, what a awesome gun to have in the collection.
My ribs and gut are hurting just thinking about the brutality that came with this knife. "Surprise! I have a little something to stick into your ribs!" Then Bam.. ouch.
That's a great summary that simply yet effectively describes the essence of this weapon. Thanks for the incite G-Dog!
It's a 1918 model and saw service with the ANZACS in WW1. It was decommissioned a couple years later. Link below...And I'm jealous of your trench-weapon. Just saying.
https://peakd.com/hive-186221/@galenkp/550mm-of-sharp
haha.. Jealous? No.. You have too many cool toys at this point to be that way. lol I really am growing to appreciate it more and more, just discussing this with people. The more I learn the more I become connected to it. The appreciation of how, when, where and why it was used. It's an honor preserving it. Like you stated in YOUR post ...
"It's like an homage to those who paid the ultimate price."
People think it's about the weapon, the war itself, but for me (and you) it's the connection to the people and their stories that matter. Some won't get it though.
Yup. I am afraid so. There is so much 'cancel culture' type mentality when it comes to guns and any weaponry, regardless of historical value. To each there own. I feel the time of museums is long past. We have a local Army Air Museum not to far from home ~ https://p47millville.org/museum/. Maybe 15 minute drive. I have been there several times, on a Saturday, and not a single person there! Empty. It's sad that kid are left to their 'Devices' rather than taken to see some REAL history. I think it would be nice if I put together a post about it.. take a visit and gather some material. Maybe it would spark some interest in others to do the same.
Erasing history isn't something I'm keen on and not teaching it? It's irresponsible in my estimation. People don't care though mostly. Too many things to focus on, important things, like gaming, shopping and new iPhones. No time for history and learning about the right and wrong of the past so that the future can be shaped more confidently.
I like the idea of a follow-up post for sure. You should do it.
Gruesome Fact: The shape of the blade is outlawed under the Geneva Convention, because that triangular shape, as opposed to a flat blade, leaves a wound that is impossible to close. In other words, a stab to the gut from that blade is 100% lethal. Now that is a gruesome fact, don't you think?
Oh man is that GRUESOME! ☠️ I can see the reality in that. Makes perfect sense and I am glad you mentioned that. Thanks for adding to the info on this weapon. I am learning more and more since this post got written. Thank you!!
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Hi @bdmillergallery this is such a great post and from the photos, the pitting wear on the metal makes me think that it is more than likely original. You can get this kind of effect with acid etching., but if these are as common an item as @silver510 says, I doubt that companies would see that much of an economic benefit of making replicas and going through that much trouble, does that make sense?
I personally think this is such a hardcore blade, I wouldn't be able to sell it, but that's just me. Like @galenkp says - shows the brutality of trench warfare in those days where an item like this could be your saviour or your demise depending on your use of it, the situation and your level of skill. Thanks @galenkp for bringing me to the post.
@handofzaara thanks for that extra bit of info, I wasn't aware of that blade design being outlawed but I can understand why. Just shows how they made things to get the job done in those days. Quite hectic.
I was thinking the same thing. The metal looks like WWI age metal. Thanks for pointing that out.
I am also curious to why replicas are being made when there are so many available to purchase. And they are, at the cheapest I've seen, $114 USD. I wonder if it has something to do with legalities of selling and buying original war weaponry. Not my area of expertise. I'll ask @silverd510, as I know he has a lot of experience in this area.
I won't sell it if it will fetch only $50. It is worth more just to hold on to because it's a piece of history. Or if I come across a family member or friend that is collecting this stuff, they can have it and buy me a beer! lol
Thanks for the reply @bdmillergallery I am also now pondering the same thing, it doesn't seem to make sense. Maybe this is something I should put on my "to research" list. It's about a mile long, so I might only find something of interest in 6 months lol. Please do update me if silverd510 has answers.
I personally wouldn't be able to sell it at that price, I would actually feel ashamed to do so with it's history, I was taught at a young age that antiques, rarities and collectibles like this have far more value than they are often given when sold. My one uncle sold all of my Grandfather and Great-Grandfather's war medals for next to nothing and I am furious as those I would have treasured if they had been passed down to me. There would be no monetary value I could place on that heritage.
So yes, I think if you really need the space, then find someone that would appreciate it for it's historical value and gift it to them.
Great post, I enjoyed it and learned quite a lot from the comments too.
Have a good one.
I'll be sure to update you with anything interesting or insightful.
Thank you as well for the comments. Nice to meet others with similar interests. Our family has been down that road too, the one where someone has sold something with far more sentimental value. We were able to get some of it back, but not all. Life is full of surprises.. not all good I suppose.
Have a great day! 😊
Much appreciated. Hive is full of really spectacular people.
It is so sad when this happens, it really is history lost. So true what you say, just gotta keep on looking for the good in each situation.
Have a lovely day & upcoming weekend.
You're welcome.
That is pretty cool. I don't know as though I have ever seen anything exactly like that. I remember reading All Quiet on the Western Front when I was younger and how brutal it all sounded. Best of luck finding a buyer if you choose to go that route!
Thanks @bozz 😊 I'm not going to sell it right away for sure, still have some research to do. 'All Quiet on the Western Front' .. Oh yeah. Been a while since I read that and something tells me your spot on! Brutal stuff. I found this knife in a thrift store in Cape May NJ. I thought it was a weird letter opener at first glance, then thought it was a prop, due to its very bluntness. At the time it didn't make sense that it could possibly be a REAL weapon. 😆
That is crazy! I think the most interesting aspect to me of the whole thing is the triangle shaped blade. That is just very odd.