Witnesses meeting with Tron Representative Roy Liu (Full Recording + Context)
It's been a loong day. Here's the raw upload of the meeting that just concluded between Steem Witnesses and Tron and Exchange Representative Roy Liu.
I'll edit this post with more info and thoughts after a nap.
There are some gold moments in here, but unfortunately not the sort of concrete actions we would like to see from Tron/Steemit.
Discuss :) <3 There will be another meeting in approximately 24 hours
Edit: I'm not sure the witnesses viewpoint needs to be repeated here. We just did it for nearly 3 hours on repeat. I think there's some valuable self incrimination to be found here and I'll mostly let the recording speak for itself.
Here are some other relevant events for context that day
Previous Meeting with Justin Sun (March 4th)
In which Justin declares that he has no interest in interfering with governance on the Steem blockchain (among other things)...
Justin Sun appeals to the Korean community for votes
Justin started trying to buy the votes of the korean community by saying he will implement any changes they want, as long as they vote in his witnesses. J came for a short discussion full of happy platitudes, vague hype and claimed he would do anything they want if they just vote for steemits puppet government and let them rush through a hardfork on their own. He left eventually, seemingly to go to bed.
Justin Sun flips out and rage posts
Despite public assurances of not wanting to interfere in governance issues, and then reaching out to Korean stakeholders appealing for votes for his puppet witnesses, for some reason Justin Sun felt this immutable blockchain transaction was a great idea.
Here's an image - thanks to bernies spam bot (that feels wrong to type)
A new tactic, lets just make new witnesses out of anyone that agrees to rush through his exchange bailout fork asap.
He seems angry, desperate, and confused about what he's even trying to do at this point.
The memes will sustain me through the winter ahead.
I answered his questions, and watched the chaos as people tore him apart in the comments, discords, slacks and twitter. I even sent his updated statement to John Mcafee who has publicly aligned with our community (alongside Vitalik Buterin, Dan Larimer, Andreas Antonopolous and many other respected minds in crypto).
Once things had hung for a while, I pinged Roy Liu on the Steemit slack. I've done this dozens of times (more politely usually) with no response since he was invited not long after the "Partnership" announcement weeks ago.
Next minute we got a panic edit the post to just "Happy to talk to community".
I immediately commented to him with a copy of his own original post again :)
MSP Town Hall
We've been doing some intense, long public discussions on all aspects of Steem for years now, but more often since the hostile takeover started. Unfortunately I don't personally have a recording of yesterday's town hall but it exists. If you have it please link below.
We were deep in a town hall with hundreds of participants when lots of this drama went down live.
Not long after the post edit, Roy Liu (Tron) and Eli Powell (Steemit) appeared in the town hall and we got to see an attempt at damage control. Lots of (but not all) witnesses were present, and there were some interesting moments but it was announced that an immediate meeting was required. With emotions high, wiser minds insisted on a short preparation period (and time to contact other witnesses). That meeting is the original point and embedded at the beginning of this post.
Ned.
Ned is a bad steemian, and should power down.
He's recently been trying to assist Justin with their disinformation campaign against Steem and it's governance system.
One of his last replies was actively calling in the SEC among others ..
Ned deleted his whole twitter history a few days ago.
Ned blocked 90% of the "steemitans" who disagree with him on twitter.
Next he started actively spreading misinformation in a twitter thread.
Somewhere around @justinsuntron's post edit, @ned posted a "come to discord" thread announcing he wanted to talk.
What transpired was a surreal clusterfuck of incompetence, lies and confusion.
I begrudgingly turned up to record these 39 minutes.
I had a lot more, but I removed a heap of his "technical difficulties" as he figured out discord.
I commented with the recording on neds post, gave him a final "fuck you ned" and moved back to meeting prep.
I've seen him doing the rounds on a bunch of other discords, asking people to vote for the steemit puppet government. He seems pretty desperate and lonely to me these days. If only he had engaged with the community before he decided to fuck us all, maybe things would be different.
Final thoughts (for now)
- I have no interest in freezing or interfering with the funds of random exchange users.
- My priority is the security and sovereignty of the Steem blockchain.
- I don't appreciate being bullied into accepted untested, rushed code from unknown developers , with no public discussion, in order to "do a favour" and bail out the corrupt colluding exchanges who are still holding us hostage
- I'm struggling to see how todays meeting will be different, but I'll still try.
Please follow me on twitter and help spread the truth about the #steemhostiletakeover .
Please vote for my witness along with other trusted witnesses or set me as your witness voting proxy.
We still need as much stakeholder support as we can get in order to stop a rushed hardfork against community consensus.
Dude, thank you so much for doing this for us. It is so appreciated. Having the access to this stuff behind the scenes means a lot to someone like me who loves this place and has a real heart-shaped vested interest in its well-being.
The transparency is really appreciated. I like feeling like you guys really care about “the rest of us,” and especially in a world where so many keepers of the secrets pride themselves to meetings in the dark—-it’s nice to have an opportunity to find out about it ourselves instead of having to be fed (and subsequently have to decide whether to stomach) a tainted/biased summary from anyone else. I like having the opportunity to form my own opinions, and I just really sincerely appreciate you for making this stuff available. Infinite thank yous.
Here, here.
I agree.
Drakos kicking his ass. Will listen to rest tomorrow.
Yeah, I think so.
@ausbitbank, Thank you so much for sharing this with us. Fell asleep while watching this session so, now about to watch this Full Session. Stay blessed.
Posted using Partiko Android
Show the exchanges how to decline voting rights (maybe they don't know how). It sounds like there are some language and cultural barriers.
Going to sleep now, but whoever suggested for exchanges to start powering down now is 100% spot on. Even if coding was started now, followed by testing, it will take time. Meanwhile the exchanges could get liquid Steem back little by little, not waiting for God knows how long before the hardfork is ready. And once it is, they can get their remaining powered up stake out faster. I don't see what's the issue here is of not starting a power down now.
I've gotta give this a listen soon... Don't know if it's been suggested, but playing the "If I Were A Steem Witness Game", my compromise offer on an accelerated power down would be to apply it to Justin's accounts and not the exchanges. By personally placing millions of new Steem on each of the exchanges, Justin can restore their liquidity and fulfill the assurances that I believe he made to them, while relinquishing witness voting power as Tron says they are willing to do.
Fair go, that.
Thanks!
That's food for thought, let him bail out the exchanges not us. Personally I wouldn't give in to the exchanges' demands to shorten the power down window for their sake. And that's what this whole meeting was about, bailing out exchanges, not about making sure Justin's stake is safe or smth (which it is btw).
Going around this point in circles can go on forever and exchanges refuse to start powering down in hopes of getting that Steem out soon and fast. Ridiculous. I'd at least start powering down now to get some liquid Steem in a week, rather than nothing.
In my opinion, the drama should end and the major players here should dialogue and compromise and sort things out. 50/50 Steem/Tron witnesses might be something to think about. The decentralized nature of the chain should be a high priority, of course, but so should scaling up the site for financial gain. Everyone should take their fingers off the trigger:P
Pick one. Either Sun being half the witnesses or decentralization.
There's no such thing as a 'Tron witness' on the STEEM blockchain. Sure, someone representing Tron can become a witness here, but that makes them a STEEM witness. Someone representing Steemit Inc can become a witness, but that does not make them a 'Steemit witness.' Yabapmatt is not a 'Splinterlands witness'. Dan Larimer could pop back in and fire up a witness, but that would not make him an 'EOS witness'. Catch my drift?
Technically, yes...but did you understand what I meant? Can Tron folks be witnesses side by side with the Steemit folk?
And if the answer to that is NO then Ned surely could have predicted that this sale would be a failure.
At any rate, Sun's shenanigans with the exchanges probably make any union impossible now.
Anyone can come here and be a witness. And if the community votes them into the top 20 LEGITIMATELY, then anyone can be a top twenty witness.
Those sock puppet witnesses currently attempting to take over the top twenty are not PEOPLE. The community would not vote in 20 bots to run the show here. How would you even hold a meeting like what we're listening to here with what some are calling 'Tron witnesses'? You can't. You'd have an easier time convincing a dog to sit than getting any grievances resolved by fake witnesses.
All walks of life, no matter what they believe in, can be a witness here. Then it's up to the community to decide where they stand. Those fake account witnesses can't even tell you what they believe in, because they are not people.
Okay, but to my thinking, this brings up another issue...Why do you think Ned sold to someone/s who don't value the concept of decentralization and apparently; in fact, seem to have the exact opposite stance on governance?
If I owned a blockchain and set it up in a decentralized manner what would compel me to sell it to a centralized authoritarian actor?
I am not Ned's brain. I could try to be Ned's brain. Unfortunately, every time I make an attempt:
...that's all I can come up with.
LOL
:>)
I'll answer my own question: if I owned a company built upon a high-regard for decentralization and wanted to sell it (for whatever reason) I would have insisted on a clause that made sure the new owner also was committed to a decentralized operation. It's like selling a house that you love and you don't want it torn down and turned into condos so you find a buyer who values what you value...
Sentimental value and money are two different things.
as someone that 'didn't go with the flow' and found out what it means to 'piss off the system' ..
i can tell you those 'authoritarian actors' already exist here. berniesanders is one. he silences and basically kicks people off here that he doesn't like.
he doesn't like people with certain opinions.
i'd wager a pretty accurate guess that he is in on it.
anyway.. the war to compromise the blockchain has been going on a long time. it started with the bots..
they changed that not long ago tho.. but they allowed it long before they changed it.. and i later heard berniesanders had influence with ned. what a bunch of shit.
the bots gave them more power than the users as it was a centeralized power that just continues to grow. (they make more than they give)
but.. that doesn't erase things from the block chain.. true censorship isn't possible.
this is a grab for total, complete.. censorship.
I understand your sentiment, but
means majority vote in DPoS. Whatever or whoever that may be at the time
I believe 'legitimately' means:
...and nothing else.
Let those exchanges bleeeeeeed! They made a massive mistake, they took us for fools and they conspired to take over a blockchain. They sill have not powered down and until they do....this will never more forward. Justin stands to lose a fortune on this.
Fully agree that they try to took over our blockchain which is unacceptable but they could also finish to delist STEEM token which is a thing that we really don't need... we have already only few exchanges which are listing STEEM. Losing these big exchanges could be the end of our token value...
Worse still, they could panic and start voting again.
I will happily watch them delist us. We shouldn't want our funds, or anyone's for that matter, to be controlled by exchanges that act the way they've shown. I will happily trade using Binance for someone else who's stepped up like Kucoin.
Binance is one of the exchanges that powered up and voted in the sock puppet witnesses.
I guess that was a bad choice of words to give clarity. I should have worded this as "I will happily SWITCH FROM using Binance for someone else who's stepped up like Kucoin." :)
I am With You @broncnutz. Let The PRICKS BLEED !!!!
it's not the exchanges that bleed but their clients at the end of the day
Until the clients file legal action and are rewarded for the exchange's malicious activities. Trust me the only losers right now are Sun and exchanges and they know it.
Justin now realizes that he has made a VERY bad decision to buy Steemit.com and think he can do whatever he wants. Ned mis-represented the sale and Justin did not do enough due diligence. simple as that.
agreed
Thank You!
Thank you.
The exchanges were spooked by the witness cabal seizing the Steemit wallet and aren't powering down because they fear a fork that could affect customer funds. Witnesses acting belligerent towards this delicate situation are weakening confidence in cryptocurrency markets and should not be part of future negotiation conversations.
I don't Trust Justin Sun as Far as You Could Throw Him. He is a SNAKE in the GRASS and Stop this shorter Power Down Talk......It's 13 Weeks and There is NO REASON to Give into These PRICKS...
Just listened to the latest meeting with Witnesses, Roy (TRON) and you. Fascinating. My biggest take is TRON's obsession to powerdown within the quickest timeframe possible. When he mentions (twice) who will prepare the next HF and execution, it is Steemit Inc. Which we know is now TRON, but when he talks about accounts enabled for the quick powerdown, he becomes very vauge about which ones exactly.
My fear is after the code is reviewed by the witnesses and hypothetically accepted. Then it is for Steemit Inc. to execute. What is stopping them adding Steemit Inc. accounts into that powerdown scenario, this after the witnesses approved a HF without the Steemit accounts. Wouldnt it be relatively easy to blindside you and add the extra accounts to the list within the code? Then Tron would be liquid with 70 million Steem.
Does this make sense that this feels a little like a trojan horse?
Ps. Can I have a quick power down which is equal to what is being asked for by TRON. Why are the exchanges privileged to get this perk and the rest of us not?
If the code is reviewed prior to implementation then they should find the new accounts before running the software. They won't approve a software stake and then activate one they haven't reviewed that is sent later.
Yes, I thought about that afterward and I think you are right, but I can almost be sure he will want some of the Steemit accounts to be able to powerdown along with the exchanges.
Thanks for sharing this @ausbitbank
I will listen it later!
I've said this before but I'll say it again. This stalemate could last much longer than 13 weeks. What I'm seeing now (I have not listened to the entire broadcast yet) is stubbornness on behalf of Tron.
STEEM witnesses made a tough call, freezing funds and voting rights, as a temporary measure, while the community waited for REAL communication. Tron seems to think things like hype and half truths were enough to convince everyone this merger would be smooth sailing.
Instead of communicating, Tron fired back with a hostile takeover. They thought they outsmarted STEEM. They did not factor in the real power of this STEEM community. What's in that 22.5 code they're trying to protect? Why is that still so important after the ENTIRE community banded together in an effort to return things back to NORMAL.
At this point STEEM is not trying to make a power move. STEEM is basically saying, "What's yours is yours, Tron."
All those exchanges need to do is powerdown and go through the usual process. They made the CHOICE to power up, and it takes 13 weeks to powerdown.
Tron says they're not interested in governance. Their actions say the opposite. Again. What's in 22.5 that is so important? Why is that even necessary? Nobody is voting for 22.2.
The solution is as simple as everyone turning around and walking away from a fight. No need for flexing. Tron can carry on with their plans to "make Steemit great". They can act like any other app developer on STEEM, since that's what they want, according to them.
But it takes 13 weeks to powerdown, so deal with it. Or let's just let this drag on for 30 weeks? Not backing off, not removing the bogus sock puppet witness accounts, and not starting the powerdown is basically Tron saying they're not interested in resolving this conflict, they just want to 'win' an imaginary battle.
That's how I feel about it, at this point in time, yet there's still over an hour of this 'talking' I need to listen to.
They just keep repeating the same thing over and over again. I listened to the whole thing and you didn’t miss anything.
I think because which direction to go is so painfully obvious to anyone familiar with STEEM, it becomes frustrating. Its like saying the same thing a million different ways in an attempt to get through to someone (Tron) who either:
a) simply can't grasp it
b) has an ulterior motive
This. He seemed to either not understand or simply dodged the result that understanding would bring because it was not convenient.
I quit working in the corporate world for many reasons but one was going to work daily and always dealing with this kind of crap. Sitting back and watching all this unfold is like going back in time, for me.
Roy is a business guy. He doesn't understand the coding side very well and just wants to accomplish some goals and keeps saying stuff like "there must be a way to do X without waiting". He's extremely stubborn so it takes like 1 full hour for him to change from point to point.
Random note to self: Mathematics. I'm surrounded by people who think in numbers and code. I assume Tron would approach these exchanges with numbers that can't be denied. Code is law. Math is fact. So it would have been easy decision for the exchanges to make, with an included promise to have liquid returned in mere days, since it was mathematically true and the code don't lie. Human nature wasn't accounted for, because one cannot predict how the individual will react. DPoS is one thing but DPoSS is totally new. The added 'S' stands for society. It cannot be coded and the outcome cannot be proven with mathematics. Next time someone attempts a hostile takeover, hire Dr. Phil.
Lol, so true. They hired some coders and did "the blockchain thing" without accounting for the response they would get. Now they're stuck between a wall and a sword and have to chat their way out of trouble.
Begging for a "favor" is hardly chatting. Tron is attempting to maintain their relationships with exchanges by scaring STEEM into thinking it is OUR reputation on the line, but STEEM did not tell Tron to execute this plan/hostile takeover. Tron made that decision independently. Tron made a promise they can't keep now, by the sounds of it. Purely speculation.
Well I used "chat their way out" in a very generalised way. I meant it basically the way conmen and scammers usually do when they're trapped. "Oh, look that way, there is treasure in my house, come with me"
Absolutely. Plus, as far as I've listened witnesses made it pretty clear they aren't interested in reinstating the freeze and are also willing to make public statements on the blockchain to that fact. So at this moment Justin has no risk of getting his funds freezed again and yet he is continuing to push for his witnesses in the top 20. The only reason I can see is to bail out the exchanges and as you said that talk could go on forever without getting anywhere.
They could have already been well into the first week of powerdown. A few more days and 1/13 of those tokens would already be made available to the public, PLUS those exchanges would have had a head start on returning to business as usual.
And those exchanges don't need permission from anyone to initiate this powerdown. They could be doing that on their own. I could start a full powerdown now, and doing so would take less time than the time it takes to complete this sentence.
Agreed, plus they could cancel the power down at any time as well. There's literally no reason not to do it.
And no risk. The code is already solid. It's such a ridiculous waste of resources to code a hardfork, test a hardfork, go through hell... just to do something that can already be done.
It's like sharpening the dull side of a knife, and dulling the sharp side of the same knife, because you disagree turning the knife over and using the sharp side to cut rather than the dull side is the way to go.
after almost 2 hours of listening to this only thing i thought was "SAY EXCHANGES ONE MORE TIME, I DARE YOU, I DOUBLE DARE YOU, YOU MOTHER FUCKER, SAY EXCHANGES ONE MORE GODDAMN TIME" :D
Exchanges.
Bitch ;)
:)
are you going to update your witness votes? see this post and scroll to your name to better utilize your witness voting power https://steempeak.com/steem/@rafalski/5-all-users-who-voted-for-witnesses-but-still-have-free-votes-check-which-votes-you-miss-and-save-the-steem
think that everyone that needs my huge vote is getting it :D
you have some votes on some witnesses way down the list. Perhaps you can vote on the rest of the witnesses that have a chance to break into the top 20 like Lukestokes, abit, stoodkev, & netuoso. Also, you are wasting a vote on Steemhunt which is innactive.
Returned full control to Sun of his SteemIt stake @nonameslefttouse. Which was then immediately voted in support of his slate of Witnesses ...
I'm aware. Could have simply reverted back to 22.1. There's no need for 22.5 to exist now, or even then. So I'm a touch curious as to what else might be in there. As soon as they pull the plug on this ridiculous and pointless hostile takeover sock puppet witness wannabe superhero look at me because I'm in charge now explosion of disastrous proportions, the chain reverts back to 22.1.
All these talks. Yet all one has to do is pull a plug out of the wall or flip a switch to get their way.
excellent
Just one great big fishing expedition. They aren't saying much except that they want the exchanges SP unlocked on an accelerated basis. They got everyone to say what they wanted to hear. Some witnesses sound far to eager to lock themselves into public positions before tron does something-they would lose their leverage if they do so. I also thought I heard a vieled threat from Roy at 46:50-like they planning such an exchange attack again.
I wouldn't be surprised if Justin Sun/Steemit hasn't agreed to a fix rate purchase on Binance, or there will be an off chain accounting trick at an exchange with customer Steem being sent to Steemit but enough at Binance to still maintain account liquidity.
As far as hkDev404 who was obtaining liquid steem by the millions from Binance while others had problems withdrawing. 2.5m were powered up to support the tron witnesses, another 500k-ish later went to poloniex from bittrex who [poloniex] to seed them with liquid steem
https://steemd.com/@hkdev404
For any poloniex users, please withdraw your Steem from there.
We are going to need to get up to 17 witnesses soon, otherwise, I hope someone is testing a fork node.
Damn I listened to the entire audio and the same thing was repeated for 2 hrs n 40 mins.
But can exchanges have a short power down window? No matter what the witnesses said, it always came back to this.
The keyword is when Roy said that it's important to "let them feel like they have a gain" (near 2:34:00)
What the witnesses propose as Tron's first steps toward a peaceful resolution:
What Tron proposes as the witnesses' first step toward a peaceful resolution:
Extra points that were touched a lot:
Curious tidbit:
LOL.
I thought steemit inc was bought by tron, not the exchanges. This is sinister
Oh it was. It's just that everyone played their cards wrong and now Justin needs a way out because he went to war without even reading a brochure on the enemy. Now peace has to be reached and for Justin not to lose too much, the exchanges need to be appeased. Everything about this is unpleasant from start to finish but it is what it is.
my two favorite blockchain ladies replying here!
Lose too much? the man is loaded.
"Do I have the only Ferrari in tge world and let borrow 10 on debt to get 20. oh they saw through the scam. well i don't want to lose my Ferrari as punishment for my own actions. maybe I can hold off for a while and get 20 Ferraris or 8" that's how Looney the Sun came out over the horizon.
The sun rose out of winter burning peoples backs. buy eventually the Sun will Set.
I'm talking about way more than the 10 million dollars he's got invested in Steem. He may have a lot but it all depends on his relationships. If his relationships get sour because he made a bad deal with a group of exchanges and people, his potential for the future will be stumped. He needs to recover his image and the witnesses are the best tool he has for this purpose.
Why is his image important in this clause?
Ty, you just saved me 3 hours of my time. Take this upvote.
😊 Glad to be of service.
I read English, but I can not understand when you speak. lol.
Thanks, @cryptosharon.
Thanks - very useful comment.
Thank you for this excellent and professionally prepared recap @cryptosharon!
From what I've heard in these meetings, Roy and Justin have offered no concession on any point. They simply repeat their "wants" over an over. They have shown to me that they have no intent on conceding anything except what they push.
IMO, they are just trying to wear our witnesses down to accept their wants. The discussions so far have accomplished little to nothing.
I don't know what to do, but these people aren't willing to compromise on anything if it means they don't totally get their way.
Finally, I don't like the idea of "helping" exchanges doing what the guilty ones did. It sets a horrible precedent, and not only for steem. They should suffer from their decision, not be rewarded with a helping hand from those they tried to destroy.
I think @themarkymark absolutely nailed it with the comment "you can move forwards by powering down"
This repetition of "we want to power down fast" is ridiculous to me. Whoever powered up the funds from the exchanges should live with that fact - if they lose customers because of this then thats their problem in my opinion - it sounds like misappropriation of funds to me.
This is absolutely relevant here https://definitions.uslegal.com/m/misappropriation-of-funds/ but I'm unaware of the implications regarding locale and duristiction in this example. I really dont think the exchanges should be bailed out in this way - and for what its worth, I think there should be legal review of these actions.
The response "maybe we can find a way to make it work" actually makes me cringe - its frustrating to hear such stubbornness dressed up as cooperation. This seems to me to be nothing more than a demand dressed up in fluffier language.
"I hear what you're saying - we're on the same page" - well if thats the case then why the continued insistence on finding a faster way to power down? Just get on with it.
I haven't got to the end of this yet and will keep listening for now - but it seems like quite a frustrating conversation to me.
That's the whole thing pretty much. Witnesses offer to make public statements stating not to re-do the softfork, assuring Justin's and anyone else's funds are safe and then it comes back to "But can exchanges power down faster?"
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Definitely some funny moments in there, and I admire the patience shown in having to repeat yourselves over and over and over again. Ron just doesn't get it the first, or second time somtimes.
"Marty" was awesome!
Loved some of your typed.. and then deleted comments too🙃
It's hilarious how much he wants to avoid exchanges having to give out any kind of official statement... Lol
"But Justin you told us you will deal with this quick."
No other words then: Scumbags.
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This entire post is such a treasure trove! Thanks for putting this together and making it through that incredibly long and eventful day where (in my perspective) we all basically had to endure barrages from various members of the opposition's wing-nut behavior!
Honestly (for me) it was all a surreal cluster-cuss and had it been fiction it would have been almost believable.
Cheers!
any tldr of the 3h talk? i bet summary of what Tron dude said can be put in 4 lines ;)
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Congratulations @ausbitbank! You received a personal award!
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Lets rephrase that "ned is a bad steemian"
NO! He is a "bad steemitan"
notice.
number 11 in his list..
makes this person impossible to believe is a person with a million dollars.
does anyone really think this would get people on board in a proposal?
almost like a deliberate sabotage.
sock puppet.
"STEEM Token on TRON"
The exchanges are not powering down because they are going to support the "STEEM Token on TRON".
Get Agreement with the Witnesses (Malicious Hackers)
The Roy discussion is ONLY to gain some agreement. If/When the agreement occurs, ....
Justin Sun has not changed his mind, he is just trying to get a path to Tron. Nothing else.
The whole Roy discussion is Nothing but a PR campaign and business deal to them.
Congratulations @ausbitbank!
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